Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor

[wheelyneil]

Hello Soeren

Here are the Voltage readings! while engine is running!

Input to hall 12Vdc or battery voltage.

Output while engine is running 3.12 vdc

Readings on lowest AC scale  fluctuating from 6.00 to 9.05

The Hall effect sensor input voltage come from B+

Here is the full wiring diagram of the ignition so you can see where output go.

[wheelyneil]

Hello Just wanted to post this link so you can see what you are working on.

It is a wood gasifier Genset. It runs off bio mass and is clean energy.

http://picasaweb.google.com/neilball34606/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCPDd3JifvqaRPw&pli=1&gsessionid=xmlcgk76ZzgOzzI0uUcwYA#

take care

Neil

[Soeren]

Hi Neil,

That's something to work from. The output from the Hall will depend on the dwell of course and it will show less on a DC range, as the meter will try to integrate the signal (how precise it gets the result will vary from one DMM to the next).

The 6V to 9V on the AC range, was those fluctuations from a steady RPM, perhaps idle, or did it cover a range of speeds?

You'll have to wait some days for my next post I'm afraid - a quick nap and a haircut and I'm off to Belgium on a seminar (and I'll be too busy during the day and too *censored* in the evening, to go online).
I'll be back home Wednesday very late, so won't get around to posting until Thursday (that won't keep me from tumbling ideas though and I'll have time to kill on the plane anyway).

I could make a circuit for you to test the Hall output if that would help?
1200 RPM equals 80 Hz, so with a fairly simple circuit you could listen for a buzz from 33Hz up (assuming an idle of 500 RPM).

[wheelyneil]

Hello Soeren

Thanks for letting me know, about your trip. I also am going to be tied up more than expected.

I Will be having Heart testing over the next 2 weeks stress test and cathing of my heart to see why I have been having chest pain. So I am a little side tracked my self.
The AC did come from a fluctuating rpm the engine only ran for a few moments long enough to take those couple test voltages and then it stalled.

But I thought I had good enough readings and I had to stop as my better half was not happy with me working on the engine and wanted me to stop until I find out about my heart.

I told her I was just taking reading nothing strenuous be she would not have it......she just doesn't want anything to happen.

If you care to send me a circuit to build that I can use to get a better out put reading would be fine. my DMM is a inexpensive model so I'm sure it has it's limitations. And any circuit that I have to build will teach me more.

So you have a good trip and we will start again soon.

Take  Care Soeren

Neil

[wheelyneil]

Bump

[wheelyneil]

Hey Soeren

How was your trip? Hope all went well.

I was going to ask if I should purchase the 4093n now or wait a bit.

Let me know when you get a chance.

Take care
Neil
 

[Soeren]

Hi Neil,

How was your trip? Hope all went well.

I was going to ask if I should purchase the 4093n now or wait a bit.

Thanks, all went according to plan (it was a round table "job" about some severely difficult medical cases we're having, with attendants from as far as South Africa, Bulgaria, Saudi Arabia and several European countries - I'm from DK btw.).

I think you should pay attention to your SO, you need your own ticker in order to make the motor tick after all

I don't know your situation, but if you have to order the 4093 online or strain yourself getting it, just wait 'till you have a green light from the doctor(s) - 4093's are easier to come by than hearts.

In case you need (or are ordered to take ) a pause, you can allways drop me an email at Spambox(at)im26y(dot)com when you feel ready for more.

I'll slap something simple together to aid in getting the Hall info needed. Today I'm kind of used up though, had 2½ hour overtime and then an hour on the phone with my brother - well had a good 8 hours of sleep, but had to stretch it over 3 nights, so I think I'll spoil myself with 5 hours tonight

Will try to post a circuit tomorrow.

[wheelyneil]

Hello Soeren

Thank you for your concern and kind words, actually working on a circuit is as easy as I can take it. Most of the time I'm welding and moving steel so working at the proto board keeps my mind off Doctors needles and all that fun.

I have all my testing next Monday if he puts me in the Hospital I'll let you know.

Glad things went well on your trip and you are home safe.  Get some good rest now.

  And when ever you can put something together to test that hall out put will be great. 

Just so you know that output voltage measurement was taken from the external lug on the outside of distributor opposite the input voltage lug.

I have a Electronics supplier local and I can get most things in a day or two, when needed. And I'm not sure if I mentioned it, but I am in the state of Florida ,USA so you know what part of the world I'm from.


Hope to hear from you soon.
Neil

[wheelyneil]

Hello Soeren

Just a quick question.

What voltage level should I be seeing at the output of the hall switch when engine is running?

I think the signal I read was 3.12vdc

Just wondering ?

Neil



 

[Soeren]

Hi Neil,

This should help:
http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/V8-Hall-Tester.pdf
The probe can be any pointed thing that you can get into the Hall output connector.

A 32 Ohm (or thereabouts) should be connected between HP and B- and you should be able to hear the ignition pulse frequency (which is 4* the RPM [or rather RPS] of course).

If you don't get any sound from it, it's just as successfull, as this is just to establish the signal from the Hall. It might be hard to hear from the sound of the exhaust of course, but since it's a higher frequency, I think it's possible to get a decent result.

Let me know if you have any problems with it.

[wheelyneil]

HI Soeren

I will put it together and see what happens.

So when the resistor is placed between HP and B- the circuit will make noise........Imagine that!

Hey I'll let you know.

Thank you

Neil

[Soeren]

Hi Neil,

So when the resistor is placed between HP and B- the circuit will make noise........Imagine that!

My bad!

The line should have read:
"A 32 Ohm (or thereabouts) HEADPHONE should be connected between HP and B- and you should be able to hear [...]"

Sorry for the miss-out 

[wheelyneil]

No problem Soeren

I thought HP ment somthing different.


Take care and thanks for your help

Neil

[wheelyneil]

Hello Soeren

I just wanted to send this video address so you could see the hall sensor circuit and tell me if this is acting some what like it should?

Sorry I cant get the signal off engine right now, I have to have surgery on my heart next Tuesday they found blockage so I cant play to much out side


take care and thanks for your help

Neil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1Vks4767KY

[wheelyneil]

Bump

[Soeren]

Hi Neil,

Your link isn't working for me.

No reason to post "bump". Just post when eg. you have some data or other new info - I'll see it then and until then, there's no reason to "refresh" my mind - I'm still a couple of days from being senile

I'll cross my fingers for you next Tuesday then!
I'm still on "red paint thinner" myself, recovering from a pulmonary embolism, but no surgery for that (I was about to kick the bucket though - crawling to the E.R. biting the pain the evening it happened - didn't want to be found dead the next day, as I was all by myself at an otherwise empty (for the day) wing of the hospital and I thought it was the heart giving in.
Personally, I hate drugs, but I didn't say NO to the morphine then

Haven't tasted that much pain since an explosion gave me a Serious Sun Tan(tm) (A.K.A. 2nd and 3rd degree burns) from my waist to just below my eyes back in the mid-seventies.
Well, shit happens... Squeeze it and make chocolate (And enjoy the young nurses and female doctors along the way )

[wheelyneil]

Hello Soeren

Hope you are well and things are good in DK?

I am feeling much better they slipped a stint in my Heart and back to bugging you

Well today I went out started the engine and ran it at 1200 rpm. I tried to use the hall effect tester but no luck I couldn't hear anything as you said it maybe to loud with engine running.

I did take some reading while engine running steady.

1. With the Hall Effect tester I probed the out put stud on the distributor and only received Milli Volt readings 2mv to.04mvdc

2. Input voltage to distributor stud was same as Batt when key was on and engine was running.

3.Output stud from distributor read a steady 3.16vdc volts. Now I changed rpm up and down and the reading did not change it was also steady.

4. The Voltage reading from that same output stud set to lowest AC scale was reading 6.4vac  and it also was steady and stayed stable.

Now I don't have my standard alternator that charges my Battery hooked up so I don't know if these reading would vary if it was charging my starting battery.

Anyways Soeren I wanted to say hello and see if we can start again on this if you don't mind?

Also I ordered a B/K O scope it's Analog 20mhz I thought it would work well for a beginner.

So I'll watch to see if you care to respond. Take care and Best regards

Neil

[Soeren]

Hi Neil,

I am feeling much better they slipped a stint in my Heart and back to bugging you

Glad you're better, but ouch, it sounds like a radical way of improving things.

3.Output stud from distributor read a steady 3.16vdc volts. Now I changed rpm up and down and the reading did not change it was also steady.

4. The Voltage reading from that same output stud set to lowest AC scale was reading 6.4vac  and it also was steady and stayed stable.

Strange, I'd think the integration of the signal (when measuring DC) would still show the changes, but if even the AC signal is steady, I wonder how the signal is composed.

Now I don't have my standard alternator that charges my Battery hooked up so I don't know if these reading would vary if it was charging my starting battery.

I doubt that it would change anything, as the Hall won't change whether the motor is loaded or not.

Anyways Soeren I wanted to say hello and see if we can start again on this if you don't mind?

Also I ordered a B/K O scope it's Analog 20mhz I thought it would work well for a beginner.

So I'll watch to see if you care to respond. Take care and Best regards

Of course I'll respond

That scope will make it a short matter, getting a picture of the output and you won't need more than a 20MHz 'scope for this.
Actually, much less is needed for this, so now you have to really start making electronics circuits

Just don't get any of the high tension from the plugs into it, as that will most likely wipe out the input amplifier.
Do you know how to operate the 'scope? (there are some tutorials on the net - Tektronix have one of the best).

Good to have you up and running again.

[wheelyneil]

Hello Soeren

Thanks for getting back with me.

Yes I think having a O scope will help very much, and I really want to see the signals and also I can attach pictures in my replies.

 I do have the 4093 chips now and the LM555, could you tell me what IC2A and IC2B is recommended are they op amps?

I will start building the circuit and as I progress I will fill you in and wait for your suggestions.

Well thats about all I have till the scope comes in, I will contact you soon.

Thanks you!
Neil

Oh I forgot to ask, The readings that I am reading on the out put post AC and DC are staying stable even though I was changing RPM's.

Am I thinking right that voltage amplitude does not have to change while signal freq increases or decreases?

Hope that wasn't a stupid question

Bye

[Soeren]

Hi,

I do have the 4093 chips now and the LM555, could you tell me what IC2A and IC2B is recommended are they op amps?

Yes, it's a dual op-amp (2 single could be used as well of course).
For starters, I'd select the good old LM358.
Along the way, perhaps another type might be needed, but I think the LM358 will do.

I will start building the circuit and as I progress I will fill you in and wait for your suggestions.

Tell me if you need a PCB layout for the project.

Oh I forgot to ask, The readings that I am reading on the out put post AC and DC are staying stable even though I was changing RPM's.

Am I thinking right that voltage amplitude does not have to change while signal freq increases or decreases?

Hope that wasn't a stupid question

Nothing stupid about it!
There could be several scenarios where it would exhibit such behaviour. If eg. the amplitude goes down with increasing RPM, or if a capacitor of a certain size is involved, things could turn out like that.
It should be revealed as soon as you get a 'scope probe on it though, but do practice a bit on measuring on eg. a AA battery for your initial experiments, if you've never used a scope - and ask all you want about setup of the 'scope and its use if you need to.
If you post the model number of the 'scope, perhaps I can find some info or a photo of it, to better guide you.

[blackbeard]

As I am sure you are learning, this forum can be an unfriendly place.  

Good luck with your project.  I looked at the video and pictures.  Looks interesting.  

hey you want to see unfriendly try electro-tech-online! you can't say any clever ideas there whithout being told how useless it is and how much better it is to go out and buy whatever it is you're making. everyone there seems expected to have a degree in electrical engineering lest they be flamed! no this is a pretty accommodating forum as long as you have some idea of what you're talking about

[wheelyneil]

Hello Soren

I just wanted say Hello and if you have the PCB LAYOUTS that I could have would be great!

My oscope came today it seems to work okay so far. I tried to Calibrate it today  from a PDF manual and it seem to do well.

It is a B and K precision 20mhz scope paid $29.00 USD for it I think it will help me learn much faster and was not very expensive.

Here is a picture of it  I hope you can help me learn to use it

On Monday I will be home and want to try getting the signal readying off that hall output. So what would you suggest testing first before I jump on the engine.

I am having fun just checking some low voltage stuff.

One question I have the ground lead on the probes are they always use when checking a signal?

Hope I can start learning more now and try to get this governor working.

Thank again for your help
Regards
Neil

[Soeren]

Hi Neil,

[...] if you have the PCB LAYOUTS that I could have would be great!

I'll make one when we know how the input should be.

My oscope came today it seems to work okay so far. I tried to Calibrate it today  from a PDF manual and it seem to do well.
It is a B and K precision 20mhz scope paid $29.00 USD for it I think it will help me learn much faster and was not very expensive.

That's a good deal you made and yes, it will probably help you understand the theory better when you can actually see what's going on in various places in a circuit.

Here is a picture of it  I hope you can help me learn to use it

That should be possible, as the photo shows quite clearly what's what.

Probably the most puzzling or misunderstood controls are:
Intensity: keep it from being too bright.
Focus: set the focus of the beam - adjust to the most precise fine line (best seen when intensity is set low).
Trigger:
- Trig Level: Adjust where you want it to fire (i.e. the vertical point where you wanna start looking at the waveform).
- Coupling: Just keep it in Auto for now.
- Source: should be on CH1 or CH2 (depending on what channel you have a signal) for now.
- Hold Off: Turn all the way CCW for now. Keep this and Level pushed in for now.

On Monday I will be home and want to try getting the signal readying off that hall output. So what would you suggest testing first before I jump on the engine.

Just familiarize yourself with the controls and measuring a battery.

I am having fun just checking some low voltage stuff.

That's what I meant

One question I have the ground lead on the probes are they always use when checking a signal?

To measure a signal you need a circuit (i.e. 2 poles) signal and ground.
For most things you can connect a separate wire to the ground socket (with a standard 4mm banana plugs) and then have an alligator clip on the other end connecting with ground of the circuit (in your case the motor block when measuring the Hall).
In these cases you can undo the ground clip on the probe (it's mounted with a spring loaded contact - just pull straight out).
When using both probes on a circuit, only connect one of them to ground, or you have the basis for a ground loop.

Don't measure in live mains circuits! If you put the ground clip on anything it will be earthed if your scope is correctly earthed and more or less live on the cabinet and all ground connections if not.

For measuring the Hall, start with a setting of 5V/div (with the probe in 1:1) set the beam to the middle line on the grid (with the switch next to the V/div on Gnd). Then put the switch in DC. and see what you get. Increase sensitivity and beam position as needed for a clear picture with a signal on-screen.

[wheelyneil]

Hello Soren

Well hear is how it went today!

I set up the Oscope to check the hall signal I used the 2v-pp calibration on the probe first.

Then after it was calibrated I set scope to a final setting of 2volts /Div and a 2mS/div.

On the scope it shows a Square wave, Voltage level of just above 4vdc and the "on part of the pulse 5mS" and the "off was 3mS"  on the 2mS/div.

After I took these measurements I increased and decreased RPM's, You could watch as signals increase and decrease to throttle responce and the Vdc stayed constant at a little over 4Vdc. My DMM was reading 3.16vdc so there is a difference between the scope and DMM reading.

So there you have it! I hope I did it right ? I think I did

Soren is there any other measurements you would like me to get? I still have a copy of the pdf of the circuit and I hope you can fill in the blanks for resistor and cap's with these measurements.

Just let me know what to do next that will help! I will start putting the componets on the proto board tomorrow.

Here is a picture it was hard to capture the pulses across the entire CRT the signal was all the way across but the camera did not show it. sorry.

Take Care
Neil

[wheelyneil]

Hello Soren
As I was building the Nand gates part of the Gov Circuit I just wonder is the 3 to 4 volts enough to power the 4093?

Just thought I would ask! I looked at the data sheet but it was a little confusing, but most say that Vdd is min 5Volts

Neil

[Soeren]

Hi Neil,

On the scope it shows a Square wave, Voltage level of just above 4vdc and the "on part of the pulse 5mS" and the "off was 3mS"  on the 2mS/div.

Is the lower part of the trace shown at ground potential (0V) or at some "higher" voltage?
a pulse period of 8ms equates to 1875 RPM on an 8-banger. The scope cannot be read with super resolution, but for 1200 RPM, the period should be 12.5ms and such a deviation (36%) is not possible - how do you decide it's running at 1200 RPM?

After I took these measurements I increased and decreased RPM's, You could watch as signals increase and decrease to throttle responce and the Vdc stayed constant at a little over 4Vdc. My DMM was reading 3.16vdc so there is a difference between the scope and DMM reading.

But the period changed accordingly I guess?

So there you have it! I hope I did it right ? I think I did

Pretty much (but keeping the camera at a right angle might produce more readable results for your next shot).

Soren is there any other measurements you would like me to get? I still have a copy of the pdf of the circuit and I hope you can fill in the blanks for resistor and cap's with these measurements.

Just tell me if the low part of the trace is at ground level.
I have allready changed a bit in the schematic, when you confirm the voltage level of the low part of the trace, I'll move on.

Just let me know what to do next that will help! I will start putting the componets on the proto board tomorrow.

That's what happen from getting a 'scope - you get itchy palms
I'll check for your post tomorrow (it's [past] bedtime here) and see if I can get it ready for you with same-day-delivery

Congrats on your new best toy 

[wheelyneil]

Hi Soeren

Is the lower part of the trace shown at ground potential (0V) or at some "higher" voltage?
a pulse period of 8ms equates to 1875 RPM on an 8-banger. The scope cannot be read with super resolution, but for 1200 RPM, the period should be 12.5ms and such a deviation (36%) is not possible - how do you decide it's running at 1200 RPM?

I had forgot that I had made a distributor adjustment.............sorry on the RPM mix up

But the period changed accordingly I guess?

Yes that is correct period changed and voltage stayed steady!

Just tell me if the low part of the trace is at ground level.
I have allready changed a bit in the schematic, when you confirm the voltage level of the low part of the trace, I'll move on.

It is at ground level   4.3Vdc reading

That's what happen from getting a 'scope - you get itchy palms
I'll check for your post tomorrow (it's [past] bedtime here) and see if I can get it ready for you with same-day-delivery

Thanks Soren it is a lot more fun seeing what is happening.......
and boy do I like that fast same day delivery

Congrats on your new best toy  

Thanks again Take care and sleep well
Neil

[Soeren]

Hi Neil,

Now that you have the numbers down, here's a suggestion... Make this:
http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Test-Generator.pdf and you can use it for testing of the circuit along the way - it's a generator replicating the Hall signal (except for the 5:3 relationship which doesn't matter here, as you just need a periodic transition either low->high or v.v.) and it will save you from having to start the engine for each test. And you can use it where you build the circuit and won't bother anyone if you choose to test the circuit late at night.

That way you can build to the circuit in "modules" on a breadboard first (and get any errors tweaked out), understand each part of it while you go along and get some practice with your 'scope.

I'll go on with the governor circuit proper now.

[wheelyneil]

Hi Soren

It will save you from having to start the engine for each test. And you can use it where you build the circuit and won't bother anyone if you choose to test the circuit late at night.

Your right the guy next door hates when I fire it at 3:00 AM, so this circuit will help
  

That way you can build to the circuit in "modules" on a breadboard first (and get any errors tweaked out), understand each part of it while you go along and get some practice with your 'scope.

I think thats a good idea and keeps the bugs down to a smaller location

Good Luck with finishing the circuit and just to let you know it's starting to get fun playing with the goodies
 
Also I wanted to ask what is J1 in the circuit you just sent is it a Jumper or ?...........Had to ask just wasnt sure  

Take care
Neil

[Soeren]

Hi Neil,

Your right the guy next door hates when I fire it at 3:00 AM, so this circuit will help

Yeah, some people are strange that way  

I think thats a good idea and keeps the bugs down to a smaller location

Exactly!
Here's the first "installment" http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Speed_Governor-input_module.pdf
Mind you, a part of it is experimental. I got the idea of integrating the signal in a gyrator circuit to keep it as simple and easy for you to understand. It's untried, so it might be less than optimal, but I think it's a good exercise for you to go through it - I do think it will work as planned, I just haven't tested it.

Try to see if you can understand what each block does (I didn't divide up the blocks though) and we'll take it from there - perhaps a block diagram will make it easier to comprehend, or perhaps some other measures, but look it over and tell me what you think you need.

 

Also I wanted to ask what is J1 in the circuit you just sent is it a Jumper or ?...........Had to ask just wasnt sure  

Yes, "J" is a jumper. I try to avoid them, but I'd rather use a few than go to a double sided PCB-layout (I only add them after the board routing tells me it's a good idea )

The first schematic is to be considered dead. The schematic in this post is experimental and we probably need a bit back and forth to get it to the final version.

When this is done, we take on the rest.

Remember to post any measurements you make, so that I can correct along the way if needs be.