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Electronics => Electronics => Topic started by: Roberto on April 19, 2008, 08:38:43 AM

Title: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: Roberto on April 19, 2008, 08:38:43 AM
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I was shifting through some old junk yesterday, and came across a 9.6v rechargeable battery pack. If I plug it into the $50 robot, will it fry it, or will the 5v regulator stop it from frying.(By the way, this is my first robot  ;))

Help is appreciated,

Roberto
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: superchiku on April 19, 2008, 10:25:10 AM
its ok.. it will work but you will need regulators both for the control board and the servo

use 7805 for your control board and 7806 for regulating 6 volt for your servo, oh yes since  the wasted voltage drop is around 3.6 volts, your power wastage will be high ...
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: airman00 on April 21, 2008, 08:17:45 PM
regulating power to servos is a big no no   
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: AndrewM on April 22, 2008, 08:11:09 AM
regulating power to servos is a big no no   

Why do you say that?  A regulator that can handle the servo current draw during a stall, with a decent capacitor across the regulated power supply for surges should be fine.
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: superchiku on April 22, 2008, 08:12:59 AM
a 7806 can withstand 1.5 ma current load so i see no problem , just that you need to attach a heat sink to it
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: AndrewM on April 22, 2008, 08:15:34 AM
a 7806 can withstand 1.5 ma current

1.5ma is quite small, you sure it is not 1.5a?   ::)
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: pomprocker on April 22, 2008, 11:52:04 AM
I was shifting through some old junk yesterday, and came across a 9.6v rechargeable battery pack.


Don't batteries expire?
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: Roberto on April 22, 2008, 08:08:11 PM
This one still works...
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: ed1380 on April 22, 2008, 08:55:38 PM
get a switching regulator.
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: airman00 on April 22, 2008, 09:11:54 PM
A regulator that can handle the servo current draw during a stall, with a decent capacitor across the regulated power supply for surges should be fine.

As admin said

Quote
Quote
Regulating Voltage to a Servo
As you should already know, servos have a voltage rating. Go above that voltage and your servo overheats and possibly fries. So suppose you have a 7.2V battery and you want to use a 5V regulator to power your servos, is that a good idea?

Short answer: No!

Longer answer . . . it will work, but its a huge waste of battery power.

So lets say you have your 7.2V regulated to 5V and the servos draw a total of 1.5A of current.

Wasted power is:
(7.2V-5V)*1.5A = 3.3W

Percentage wise, its
(7.2V-5V)/7.2V = 30.6%

Thats the battery energy percentage wasted to thermal heat - almost 1/3rd!!!

Speaking of heat, your voltage regulator probably has thermal shutdown, meaning that if it overheats it will throttle down current to your servos - meaning your servos will have lower torque and lower speed. If your voltage regulator doesn't have thermal shutdown, it will just fry instead (not a good thing).

But if you still really really need to regulate for servos, get a switching regulator (like ~83% efficiency on average).
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: AndrewM on April 22, 2008, 11:54:25 PM
Two servos through a regulator rated for 1.5a should not put the regulator into thermal shutdown (assuming it has a thermal threshold built in that is), as you are only pulling around 300ma per servo under normal use, 600ma at stall.  Granted if your servos stay at stall you might have problems, but if your servos are in a stall condition that long you have other problems anyway.  So thermal shutdown is not an issue.

Energy waste is a concern, but you waste energy whenever you put a regulator into a circuit, even for your mcu power.  In an ideal world a battery that is rated at 5V would stay at 5V from full charge to discharge, but seeing as that isn't the case, we dump in 6V or 7.2V packs to power the 5V mcu, wasting energy across a regulator.

At this level (meaning the hobby entry level robotics), you aren't concerned with the energy efficiency needed to get through a darpa grande challenge track on battery power alone, so you really only have one concern with running stuff of a regulator besides an mcu, and that is amperage rating.  Which in this case in not really a factor given the regulator mentioned by superchiku and it driving only two (I would assume) standard servos.

So that leaves me with one good reason to say "you can use a regulator to drop voltage to drive your servos."  If you have a batterypack laying around, and you want to keep the $50 robot a 50 dollar robot by not having to purchase batteries, but instead a $1.50 regulator then it seems like a good choice.
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: superchiku on April 23, 2008, 12:40:46 AM
yes its 1.5 A , power wastage was always a issue but what can one do , the servos can withstand max 8v actually but for safety it is rated at 6v so without the regulator , we can say the servo bye bye
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: airman00 on April 23, 2008, 06:47:03 AM
only pulling around 300ma per servo under normal use, 600ma at stall. 

Servo stall is usually much higher than 600ma.

 And even if the thermal shutdown does not occur, the heatsink of the regulator gets very very hot , and that heat can do some damage to other components on your circuit board  , so make sure to add an extra heatsink to the existing one.
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: Conscripted on April 23, 2008, 10:05:54 AM
yes its 1.5 A , power wastage was always a issue but what can one do , the servos can withstand max 8v actually but for safety it is rated at 6v so without the regulator , we can say the servo bye bye

If the Vmax for the servo is 8vdc couldn't just put an appropriate sized resistor on the power line to drop a volt or two?
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: airman00 on April 23, 2008, 11:40:40 AM
you could but that is incredibly inefficient
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: superchiku on April 23, 2008, 12:34:18 PM
well inefficient because 9.6 v rated battery is not 9.6 v always , it will be 10.XX something fully charged and 7.XX something completely discharged so adding a resistor means power supply will never be a constant 6v it will fluctuate according to the potential of the battery
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: ed1380 on April 23, 2008, 02:43:45 PM
Two servos through a regulator rated for 1.5a should not put the regulator into thermal shutdown (assuming it has a thermal threshold built in that is), as you are only pulling around 300ma per servo under normal use, 600ma at stall.  Granted if your servos stay at stall you might have problems, but if your servos are in a stall condition that long you have other problems anyway.  So thermal shutdown is not an issue.

Energy waste is a concern, but you waste energy whenever you put a regulator into a circuit, even for your mcu power.  In an ideal world a battery that is rated at 5V would stay at 5V from full charge to discharge, but seeing as that isn't the case, we dump in 6V or 7.2V packs to power the 5V mcu, wasting energy across a regulator.

At this level (meaning the hobby entry level robotics), you aren't concerned with the energy efficiency needed to get through a darpa grande challenge track on battery power alone, so you really only have one concern with running stuff of a regulator besides an mcu, and that is amperage rating.  Which in this case in not really a factor given the regulator mentioned by superchiku and it driving only two (I would assume) standard servos.

So that leaves me with one good reason to say "you can use a regulator to drop voltage to drive your servos."  If you have a batterypack laying around, and you want to keep the $50 robot a 50 dollar robot by not having to purchase batteries, but instead a $1.50 regulator then it seems like a good choice.
thats why i said use a switching regulator. very little is wasted to heat. no matter what imput voltage
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: airman00 on April 23, 2008, 06:38:42 PM
thats why i said use a switching regulator. very little is wasted to heat. no matter what imput voltage

right , thats the best thing to do

also you spelled input wrong , lol  :D  no M in input
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: ed1380 on April 23, 2008, 07:14:56 PM
exhaustion works wonders  ;D
i know thats spelled wrong too
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: AndrewM on April 23, 2008, 09:08:53 PM
No disagreement on the switching regulator front.  But while we are on the subject, do you know of any good low current switching regulators (meaning will stay active at 5ma draw or so)?
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: ed1380 on April 23, 2008, 09:20:14 PM
IDK any specific ones but search around on allegro
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: superchiku on April 24, 2008, 02:18:39 AM
switching regulators will be hard to find.. i hope digikey has it.
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: cooldog on April 24, 2008, 04:45:12 AM
switching regulators will be hard to find.. i hope digikey has it.

they should
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: ed1380 on April 24, 2008, 02:33:54 PM
samples. duh
what i got http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Part_Numbers/980502/
just dont order what you dont need
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: AndrewM on April 24, 2008, 07:08:44 PM
After a little peaking and poking around, I found this bad boy which would be pretty good for servos:  http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM2596.pdf

3A rating, and the only switching regulator that hits 80% efficiency rating in the 5V range that I could find (12V I was seeing 90%).  I put in for a sample from National Semiconductor.  Seeing as weight will be a definite issue limiting the number of batteries I can use, I thought I would give it a go in one of the hoverbots to see how it works out.
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: superchiku on April 24, 2008, 11:23:29 PM
did national give u the samples withour a comapny email???

i send a sample request to national but they didnt give any tracking details??
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: AndrewM on April 24, 2008, 11:54:43 PM
My company has had an account with National, and several others, for quite a while and I have never had a problem getting samples.  Texas Instruments is the only company that has ever gotten wishy-washy with me only because I refuse to deal with their local rep.  I'm just not a people person I guess  ;D 

I don't know about National's policies on samples for individual users though.
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: superchiku on April 25, 2008, 08:06:53 AM
national doesnt ship free for single users , its not worth paying 60 $ for shipping a 2$ chip
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: airman00 on April 25, 2008, 08:37:09 AM
national doesnt ship free for single users , its not worth paying 60 $ for shipping a 2$ chip

lol


many companies manufacture the same or similar parts

for example the 7805 regulator is manufactured by multiple companies
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: superchiku on April 25, 2008, 12:15:51 PM
but some parts are not i can ask TI for some switching regulator samples but i have ordered so many samples from them that i feel ashamed of asking for samples from them....

Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: AndrewM on April 25, 2008, 12:46:00 PM
The easy way to overcome the "shame" of getting samples from companies is to avoid abuse by limiting your sample requests to two different categories:  1) new technology they just released that you might find interesting.  2) any chipset or technology which you have never used and want to know if it will work for you application.  That is what samples are for, so as long as you don't order samples for parts you need just because you can get them for free there is no reason to feel bad.
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: superchiku on April 25, 2008, 01:09:24 PM
ya but sometimes if u need samples over and over again then it can be odd if u need more samples
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: airman00 on April 25, 2008, 01:40:59 PM
ya but sometimes if u need samples over and over again then it can be odd if u need more samples

well if you sample the same part over and over , just because you need 8 of that part or something , thats wrong and feel ashamed

remember , that when you sample you are testing out their products and in the future when someone asks you for a good part or you need a big order of it , you know which part to buy. For example ,that part from national that AndrewM sampled , now you know about it and you might buy it or use it in your application. You see how this advertising system works?
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: superchiku on April 25, 2008, 11:46:51 PM
strange system though like me thousands of people will be ordering samples from them  dont you think that they will incur losses due to it ??
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: AndrewM on April 26, 2008, 12:40:14 AM
Of the probably ten thousand or more samples that these companies each send out per year, a small percent will wind up in a product that will get mass produced, resulting in millions of sales.  For the small cost of the samples, versus the millions in revenue generated as a result, it is well worth it. 

Take the switching regulator as an example.  If National sends out two switching regulators to 1000 customers this year (so 2000 switching regulators) that cost them $0.50 each to manufacturer and $1.00 in shipping.  Those samples cost the company $2000.00.  If only two of the customers (that's only 0.2%) use the switching regulator in products, and each sells 1000 of that product, National has just made their money back and a small profit.  On top of that, those two customers are going to be more likely to purchase other chips and semiconductors from National, seeing as how well the switching regulators worked out for them.
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: superchiku on April 26, 2008, 07:50:47 AM
but thats definitely adhoc.... its something they are assuming what if none of them make a product out of it then they will incur heavy losses
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: shlodo on May 10, 2008, 06:42:07 AM
Put a heat sink on it coz it will get quite hot if u regulate it down to 5V. this is quite innefficient (9.6V - 5V) why dont u look at other batteries. Those 9.v batteries are just 8 AA rechargeables.
Title: Re: 9.6v Battery: Will it work?
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 13, 2008, 02:09:01 AM
Look... what I'll say may be a little extreme but....
Just try to remove 2 batteries from the pack and get a 7V2 charger...

And you will also have 2 extra batteries at hand!!!

Lefteris