Society of Robots - Robot Forum
General Misc => Misc => Topic started by: izaktj on October 28, 2008, 07:38:23 PM
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Me and a friend are building an UAV, however, being a complex robot I've divided the project in 4 phases. We are currently in phase 1.
[PHASE 1]
Build a cheap and simple RC plane and of course flyable. This is nearly complete, we only need to buy the battery and the brush-less motor, but we are short on $ lol
I will post pictures later tonight.
Phases:
1- Build an RC plane
2- Laptop as Transmitter
3- Add camera to plane, controlled by mouse and feedback to laptop
4- Add autopilot
5- Add failsafe stuff
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if anyone has any ideas please help us, we are all ears ;D thanks
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Here is a pic of the plane:
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/S6309085.jpg)
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I assume you want ideas to solve your problem - which is stated as being short on $.
Here's a few ideas.
1. Bake sale
2. Sell magazine subscriptions door to door
3. Work for pay
4. Panhandle
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Read this it might help.
http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotfunding.shtml
If not, you might have to sell some organs or "convince" your buddy to. ;D
..X..
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Read this it might help.
http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotfunding.shtml
If not, you might have to sell some organs or "convince" your buddy to. ;D
..X..
I assume you want ideas to solve your problem - which is stated as being short on $.
Here's a few ideas.
1. Bake sale
2. Sell magazine subscriptions door to door
3. Work for pay
4. Panhandle
lol Guys thanks, this thread is kinda like a journal to show our progress and for people to learn with us xD
But thanks for the suggestions ;D
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Here are some pics of the current equipment we've got.
-Tx (With battery :D)
-Rx (No battery yet :'()
-3 mini servos
-ESC
-Foamboard plane :D
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/S6309086.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/S6309087.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/S6309088.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/S6309089.jpg)
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pretty cool. i somehow doubt that weird shape will every fly, though :P
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pretty cool. i somehow doubt that weird shape will every fly, though :P
The guys from rcgroups whom I got the "plans" from built it and it flew quite great. Being a flying wing design it is very aerodynamically efficient.
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hey guys,
so have you got any experience flying RC aircraft?
if you don't then that is the wrong shaped airframe to start with.
trust me here.
i used to fly RC gliders a little bit years ago and recently built myself a flying wing.
it was a *lot* of fun but it is not the best shape to (re)learn how to fly.
it took 4 or 5 trips before i could keep it in the air for more than 30 seconds.
after repeatedly crashing the first version i was starting to get the hang of it when the airframe became so beat up there was more tape than foam.
i rebuilt it and went out yesterday with a fresh new plane yesterday and wedged it in the top of a tree.
the tree came out of nowhere. it moved really fast for a 40m high chestnut. i don't think i'll get the plane back although i'll try going out there next time it's windy to see if it's blown loose.
the moral of the story: flying wings are a lot of fun but not a beginners plane.
you will loose/break your equipment.
not an issue for me but sounds like you guys are short of funds.
if you do have some experience with RC planes then you will know a flying wing is not the best option for a UAV.
they are just too fast and unstable.
so, anyway,
i suspect you intend to build your wing anyway so here's the thread that helped me with mine:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=316871 (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=316871)
there's a few different versions in the thread. the one i built is on page 5. (but i added a little dihedral to make it more stable.)
i will be building another one of those flying wings as soon as my new motor, speed controller and parts for my homebuilt receiver arrive but i fully expect to loose that one as well. hopefully not in a tree this time.
for my UAV platform testing i have built one of these:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=338359 (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=338359)
as it is *far* slower and more stable so you get far more thinking time before the ground/tree/gust of wind takes you plane to the bad place.
anyway, good luck with it and keep us posted.
and don't fly near trees....
dunk.
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Thanks a lot for the info dunk, I was also thinking about instability of flying wings but I never thought it was that much. :D But yeah it ain't too late to change or design to a glider like aircraft, I mean we have not ordered motor+prop yet. I had planned to get a 3000kV one lol I bet a 850kV one with a 11x4 prop might do well in a slow flier.
But I think we are gonna build a glider-like instead, kinda like the predator B and use the V-tail as the only control surface, have you tried those?
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try and look for a trainer with the wing above the fuselage.
basically the weight is underneath the wing this way so it makes things more stable.
the 2nd one i linked to seems good to me. easy and cheep to build and flies well. you need some foam sheet, a sharp knife and a hot glue gun.
i have not had the weather to fly it much yet though so won't comment further on that particular plane.
a "pusher" prop is good for starting with as well so the delicate motor and propeller are not the first things to hit the ground.
and buy more then one propeller. you will break one or two at some point.
if you can afford it get a few different sizes and pitches of prop so you can play with the best combination.
3000kV is kind of big for a motor on a trainer.
a 850kV is more realistic but i don't have much experience with this either.
this guy's site has some good beginners info: http://www.giantcod.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=15&sid=b25b56e1434520b3a00c580652f19392 (http://www.giantcod.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=15&sid=b25b56e1434520b3a00c580652f19392).
i found the prices in his shop reasonable as well if you are in the EU.
dunk.
(definitely not a RC aircraft expert.)
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Thanks a lot dunk :D
I do have foam sheets and all that stuff you mentioned :)
And prices are important, I was going to purchase"cheap" motors from another online store but the shipping cost is $20+ so it ain't cheap anymore.
What do you think about a desing like this one?:
(http://www.uavforum.com/graphics/photo/aladin.jpg)
It has some kind of weight to keep it stable, maybe the payload d=
Just modify a bit to get a pusher config
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If a flying wing is a must... add some sort of tail for stability to your existing design...
..X..
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Yeah dunk, we are mexicans but we live on the border with USA, so we can buy things on both countries ;) and thanks for all the info ;D
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Honestly I would get a RTF plane to learn on first, they are proven designs and you will get aquainted with flying. If you scratch-build something you won't know if you crashed because you cant fly or if you cant build. And trust me, everyone crashes. A lot ;) . Also definetly start saving for good electronics, looks like all the ones you bought were those cheap china no-brand kind of electronics... they may work for now, but once you actually get it to fly autonomously you MUST go with name-brand electronics. Those cheap ones have a really high failure rate, and it would really suck to lose all your gear in some random location 10 miles away from you. Especially the servos, those can burn out (and many don't even work to start with) at any time.
Again get an RTF plane! Hobbyzone Super Cub is the best thing you can get, and the thing is, its really really fun! I can guarantee you if you go ahead with the flying wing, it will crash on its first flight, and you won't be happy about it.
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I see you guys (izaktj and rugebiker, welcome to the forum :)) are busy with projects. I fly electric RC airplanes and am short on $ as well. I happen to own a flying wing that I bought for $20 (just for the body, the motor and other stuff I got second hand). There's a picture of mine at the bottom of this post and here's a link for more info: http://www.hobbypeople.net/gallery/160525.asp (http://www.hobbypeople.net/gallery/160525.asp).
I 100% agree with dunk, I find it too radical for potential robotic use, but that goes for most flying wings. If I were building a UAV, I would base it on a glider. Most successful UAVs are based on gliders.
Question: can your radio do servo mixing? A flying wing only needs 2 servos and a radio the can mix the signals of them. It would be significantly easier if it can do this. Otherwise, I don't know how to build a flying wing with 3 servos, unless it had a tail rudder (technically, it wouldn't be a flying wing anymore).
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/4184/wingzn7.jpg)
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Thanks mate, we are really considering using a glider frame, actually it's decided. And yeah, my Rx can do servo mixing for V-tail and aileron (for flying wings).
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DUNK: Did you build the V-tail or T-tail version? I'm also thinking about the GWS slow stick. It's $23 with shipping, kinda cheap lol
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Slow stick is one of the best planes you can buy ;D
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Slow stick is one of the best planes you can buy ;D
I know, that's why I'm buying it ;D Plus it's cheap :D But as soon as I get free time, school is draining me :-[
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I'm happy to see another guy getting into UAV things...
But as said, Why a flying wing man.
All the real planes which are Delta Wing or Flying wing are flying with fly by wire mechanics.
This means that all of them use a hell of sensor to stabilise and smooth up the flight,
making the pilots day....
The best way to to start with UAV planes are the gliders. They conserve energy plus they are light weight and a flying extremely smoothly.
With a glider and a GPS you can do airial photography and such which is very fascinating.
Now the most you can do with a delta wing at stage one is to smooth up the ride while still using the control.
Then start enabling the UAV controller to handle more flight data prosseccing and use more the controls,
while not using the ground controller...
Finally you get to see how it acts on a windy day, cause thing may be calm down here but up in the skies things differ...
I have some experience in UAVs but only hthe very basics, whatever you want I'm willing to help and learn!!! ;)
Best Reagards,
Lefteris, GReece
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IM SORRY FOR THIS ONE, I'm reading more about people wanting to build uav's, I just have a question:
HAS ANY OF YOU AT ANY POINT CONSIDERED THE LEGALITIES OF UAV FLIGHTS. Only ask because i never hear it mentioned.
A lot of countries require you to have control over the vehichle at any time it may be required with additional failsafes over and above this, a few hundred feet maximum altitude (around 400ft in most cases), Restricted airspace is a big no no (sometimes you wont recognise it as restricted until someone taps you on the shoulder), line of sight control only and more besides.
I don't want to be a pain -- bubble burster or whatever, but in this country at least, breaching some of these rules can see you jailed almost instantly and the breaking of any of the rules/laws for uav's can see you in court under terrorism charges. Believe me i've checked and was told the authorities dont care if its for hobby use or not.
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From what I know there are no UAV restrictions in Greece... There are only restrictions for the range of a transmitter....
BUT What is University for??? In Greece, no police is allowed in Universities so, you can basically build any kinda of transmitter
(which doesn't cause serious problems like blocking any devices for example flight equipment) with ANY range...
There is even a radio station in our campus!!! No permission of course, but if police can't step in what's the problem...
In order for police to enter the campus, no matter how serious things are, they must get permission by the head of the campus...
But so unwritten rule says that if police enters the campus to arrest a student (not in case of murder or something else very very serious)
Then believe it or not the head of the campus will have to deal with many many students..... (things can turn very bad....)
And things can get bad... For example, the year before, the built the head (well I don't have the name here) in his office, for some reason
(there is a bit of a problem here with education cause it's a time of big changes and the head(principal) agreed with something what was against the student rights)
So basically, University here in Greece is a bit of a city with it's own rules... We have freedom to do many things and I'm very happy of this!!! :D :D
I wrote all this to contrast with the situation of the other guy!!!! :P :P :P :P I own is a little off topic don't worry!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Well I live in Mexico, and we don't even have laws about that lol.
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This has been discussed on some UAV forums, basically as long as its under a certain weight limit, you dont fly so high that you interfere with real airplanes, and that you use some common sense (dont fly over white house).
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I would try to get a GPS in it for the AUTO PILOT, so that it will see how far it is from the ground... So on. ;D
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OK :), I just haven't heard it mentioned in this group before and didn't want to see someone unknowingly jumping into hot water. :'(
For you guys with no apparent restrictions i envy you!!!!!!
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Countries implement these laws for good reasons, not to be big brother ;D
Make sure your creation doesn't crash land into someones face at 20mph, or through a window, or interferes with vital communication systems.
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Just to let you know that this project is not dead. It's active as of today and tomorrow I'll order some parts and the Slow Stick airframe. However, there are bad news. I will continue this project alone and my friend rugebiker might do one of his own. This is because we are no longer in the same college and we'll not be able to meet for the project progress.
EDIT: lmao my checking card was expired and I wasn't aware. Will fix this problem later. :'(
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Hi guys, I'm back. I know it took long, like a year to come back. I might have looked mediocre, and just one of the rest who tried and gave up; but not today. In the past months I've gathering the electronics needed for completing stage one of this project, which was simply building an RC plane, and I successfully did it. I finally got in my head the saying "Buy cheap, buy twice" so I went ahead and purchased reliable metal gear servos and American made brush-less motor among other electronics. As the cost was high, the acquisition time was spread in several tranches spaced by a couple of weeks to each other.
As I finished and totaled the Phase 1 RC plane after a lot of fun, I was amazed at the idea of designing it trough CAD software such as Google sketchup, and bringing it to life, like talented talented hobbyists do. So I did my research, asked for tips and finally achieved success with my first prototype. Of course, with the help of Bill Seagraves, Scott Lott and Tomas Hellburg.
I feel very successful after seeing this baby grow from a single face in Google Sketchtup, to a PDF plan and finally to a foamie. For me, it is a great sucess to do it, learning to use CAD software and producing it at the scale as I planed, in other words, everything went as I planed :D
Here are some pics, first the electronics and hardware I needed:
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN0968.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN0967.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN0966.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN0965.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN0964.jpg)
Secondly, the CAD design:
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/prototype.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/prototype2.jpg)
Thirdly, the printed plans (I ran out of glue so I had to use tape):
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN1226.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN1227.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN1228.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN1229.jpg)
And Finally the almost ready to fly prototype:
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN1225.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN1224.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN1223.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN1221.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN1220.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN1219.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN1218.jpg)
Now, this is nowhere near the aircraft configuration I'm going to use, this is only for learning purposes of using CAD software to design and bring it to life. The configuration I'll use will most likely look like a glider or a variable wing sweep design. I forgot to take a pic of the printed plans haha
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Bad news, I crashed it. Here are the last pics I took of it, showing servo and general electronics placement.
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN1233.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN1237.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DSCN1236.jpg)
The control surfaces were not giving enough pitch or roll, ending in an uncontrollable crash against the fence. Luckily, the on board electronics were unharmed.
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Your control surfaces are too small, you should extend them all the way out to the wingtips like a flying wing type RC craft.
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Oh absolutley, I knew it was going to be lacking authority. But I went for it anyway haha
I was interested in the simple thrust vectoring (just add a whole to the elevon) but anyway, it is not the configuration for the project so it isn't that important.
Next protoype will look more like a glider, very similar to the on Dunk suggested if not the same.
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Slight modifications for greater control surfaces. I might add vertical stabs later if needed, which very probably will.
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/DivinityV3.jpg)
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Damn it so much homework >:(
I won't get a chance to work on it until Thursday :'(
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Man just a suggestion.... try adding some vertical wing... it will be too unstable to fly a straight line....
And you don't have the computer to correct it right now....
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Just a comment . . .
I noticed your prop is located approximately around the center of mass. The problem with this is that it makes it easy for the plane to rotate about the center of mass - therefore very unstable in wind.
Being unstable isn't always bad, as it makes it very agile too. But only if your controller is good enough, and your IMU is accurate/fast enough . . .
I agree with Tricky, add some vertical rudders. Perhaps one on the end of each wing tip . . .
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Thanks guys, yep I'm adding vertical stabs =D
The prop is more likely going to be in the back in this prototype. If it flies good enough I'll move one to the appropriate glider like airframe.
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And something more... Deltawings depend to very low drag (as real planes) and high speeds...
Since you want to smooth out the motion, and not to hit the gas, I also recommend some forward flaps, or, more difficult, incline wings to the system of mass like the predecessor of corsair :-P
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haha well that sounds kinda hard
I'm trying to make this fly for fun
I might even drop it and start designing the new one.
I really like the Multiplex Easy Star airframe type, because the motor is basically shielded and it has glider features.
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Anything can fly with enough power :D
(http://webpages.charter.net/mcquinn/Dave/RC/images/Pizza1.jpg)
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=996848 (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=996848)
With the advent of brushless and lipo you dont need wings, just control surfaces. I have seen people attach the power system on a cube of foam and tape on socks for stability. Like socks that go on your feet.
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Anything can fly with enough power :D
(http://webpages.charter.net/mcquinn/Dave/RC/images/Pizza1.jpg)
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=996848 (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=996848)
With the advent of brushless and lipo you dont need wings, just control surfaces. I have seen people attach the power system on a cube of foam and tape on socks for stability. Like socks that go on your feet.
lol yeah I remember the sock of jetsett IIRC, and the surfer dude, and snoopy with his own little house xD
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With the advent of brushless and lipo you dont need wings, just control surfaces. I have seen people attach the power system on a cube of foam and tape on socks for stability. Like socks that go on your feet.
lol yeah I remember the sock of jetsett IIRC, and the surfer dude, and snoopy with his own little house xD
And the lawnmower! ;D
http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotforum/index.php?topic=9141.0 (http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotforum/index.php?topic=9141.0)
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lmao thats awesome!
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Here's the variable wing sweep design I've been working one. It's really ugly though, haha
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/ArchangelV1-2.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg50/izaktj/UAV/ArchangelV1.jpg)
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Looks good! But will be a pain to make autonomous, with different CG levels in different positions. Why is a sweep design needed? It may be cool but not really functional.
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Well, after much thought and problems. I'm scrapping this project, I simply enjoy much more programming then electronics and building foam airframes.
Anyhow everything is for sale, servos, motors, etc. If interested just shoot me a PM.
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Anyhow everything is for sale, servos, motors, etc. If interested just shoot me a PM.
Can you put up exactly what you have, condition etc?
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Sure
3 HS-82MG metal gear servos in very good condition all of them. - $40 for the three of them
Microjet motor & ESC with all the plugs soldered in good condition with a 6x5.5 prop (good for small parkjets). - $25
Li-Po charger/balancer with wall adapter like new - $10
I also have an almost complete parallax sumo bot in good condition for $65 as well.
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gr8 idea!! jus wonderin but wot cam do u plan 2 use i cant find a decent 1
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gr8 idea!! jus wonderin but wot cam do u plan 2 use i cant find a decent 1
I had plan on using the blackfin camera, but not anymore since I'm scrapping this project.
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I'm interested in the motor,prop,ESC and Lipo stuff. Do you still have the battery? What make / model are the Motor and ESC?
when i look up that model servo (with metal gears), they sell new for $20 a pop. Are yours special?
http://www.google.com/products?q=HS-82MG%20metal&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wf (http://www.google.com/products?q=HS-82MG%20metal&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wf)
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I'm interested in the motor,prop,ESC and Lipo stuff. Do you still have the battery? What make / model are the Motor and ESC?
when i look up that model servo (with metal gears), they sell new for $20 a pop. Are yours special?
http://www.google.com/products?q=HS-82MG%20metal&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wf (http://www.google.com/products?q=HS-82MG%20metal&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wf)
I don't have the lipo as it died.
I'm shocked at the price, I bought mine at $60 each being that the lowest price I found and I really searched for them.
oh wait never mind, it's $60 for all of them. I'll take $40 for the three of them.
For the motor combo go here: http://www.graysonhobby.com/catalog/microjet-combo-microjet-p-765.html (http://www.graysonhobby.com/catalog/microjet-combo-microjet-p-765.html)
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I'm interested, and will PM you.