New Robotics Center (PRC)

[kl22]

Hi all!

I'm just starting up into the world of Robotics, so I decided to document my adventure.

http://robotics.pixiq.ca

The site is going to be used to document everything I'm doing and have learned. So for those that like to read and those that are also new and would like to get step-by-step tutorials and explanation on what I'm doing can read all about it at my blog.

To start off I'm exploring the Axon II which I purchased about 2 days ago.

Hope you all enjoy. Let me know if you would like me to do add/do something!

(Admin: could you possibly add this to your resources list or something along those lines?)

(Update: site renamed)

[Admin]

Hmmm I'll link to your site in the exampless, but it seems painfully slow . . . bandwidth issues?

I did a trace route, not sure whats going on here . . .

  7    28 ms    28 ms    28 ms  61-91-210-50.static.asianet.co.th [61.91.210.50]
  8    28 ms    28 ms    28 ms  203-144-144-28.static.asianet.co.th [203.144.144.28]
  9    30 ms    28 ms    28 ms  61-91-210-5.static.asianet.co.th [61.91.210.5]
 10   286 ms   431 ms     *     61.19.10.29
 11   615 ms   360 ms     *     61.19.9.69
 12   442 ms     *      240 ms  61.19.9.30
 13   293 ms   292 ms   396 ms  61.19.9.50
 14   379 ms   522 ms   382 ms  121.189.2.57
 15   508 ms   388 ms   429 ms  112.174.88.50
 16   468 ms   382 ms   537 ms  112.174.88.45
 17   482 ms   302 ms   304 ms  112.174.88.25
 18   457 ms   363 ms   557 ms  112.174.88.42
 19   306 ms   407 ms   497 ms  121.189.3.6
 20   416 ms   309 ms   509 ms  69.63.248.253
 21   382 ms   380 ms   380 ms  69.63.250.17
 22   412 ms   411 ms   411 ms  69.63.251.213
 23   597 ms   613 ms   614 ms  pos-0-0.gw01.mtmk.phub.net.cable.rogers.com [66.185.81.130]
 24   524 ms     *      610 ms  gi-4-1.gw03.mtmk.phub.net.cable.rogers.com [66.185.83.250]
 25   454 ms   454 ms   457 ms  gi-1-0-0.cmts03.mtmk.phub.net.cable.rogers.com [66.185.91.13]
 26   463 ms   463 ms   464 ms  CPE002369563281-CM001a66708206.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [99.247.124.218]

[dunk]

Hmmm I'll link to your site in the exampless, but it seems painfully slow . . . bandwidth issues?

the problem looks to be a network issue between line 9 and 10 on that traceroute.
i speculate it is a peering issue between AsiaNet and whoever they use for long-haul connectivity to rogers.com.

i don't really know much about the peering market outside Europe but i believe most capacity from your part of the world Admin is routed through Japan and across the Pacific.
a quick image search brings some clarity: http://kelsocartography.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/seacablehi.jpg

bandwidth between Asia and the rest of the world is often scarce at the moment.
thankfully relief is on the way:
http://www.examiner.com/x-16352-Japan-Headlines-Examiner~y2009m11d1-Googles-Pacific-fiber-optic-cable-departs-from-Japan


so yea,
in short,
nothing wrong with http://robotics.pixiq.ca/ bandwidth.
it's your sucky internet connection again Admin....


dunk.

[Admin]

Well, my bandwidth here is sub-par, but not painfully bad. Usually acceptable for most things I do.

But his blog literally would take minutes, then just fail half-way. Hows your trace route look?

Most sites load pretty much instantly for me, like SoR. This is a trace route to SoR . . . its fairly typical, and isn't too bad:

 8    28 ms    28 ms    28 ms  203-144-144-28.static.asianet.co.th [203.144.144.28]
  9    65 ms    41 ms    34 ms  61-91-210-5.static.asianet.co.th [61.91.210.5]
 10   285 ms   285 ms   286 ms  61.19.10.29
 11   514 ms   282 ms     *     61.19.9.65
 12   283 ms   282 ms   282 ms  61.19.9.46
 13   271 ms   442 ms     *     202.47.253.226
 14   270 ms   270 ms   271 ms  eq-sanjose-10G.theplanet.com [206.223.116.148]
 15   272 ms   473 ms   278 ms  c2.fd.5746.static.theplanet.com [70.87.253.194]
 16   270 ms   270 ms   269 ms  26.ff.5746.static.theplanet.com [70.87.255.38]
 17     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 18   272 ms   272 ms   272 ms  te5-1.car12.dllstx6.theplanet.com [70.87.254.226]
 19     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 20     *      271 ms   420 ms  33.af.78ae.static.theplanet.com [174.120.175.51]

edit: fixed small typo

[Asellith]

Must be the asia to canada route (rogers is canada isn't it?) The Asia to USA pipes must be bigger.

[dunk]

so Traceroutes are a useful tool but they don't tell the whole story.

sounds like i'm wrong in this case.
i thought the delay you are seeing between line 9 and 10 looked suspicious but although a long or erratic delay suggests problems it does not confirm it.
a long-ish delay does not matter as long as all the data gets through eventually...

[kl22]

Hey admin,
I think there are two problems, one the server is hosted from my house... so I only get 1mb/s upload speeds. I'm currently working on some sponsorships for hosting, hopefully by next week the University close to my house sponsors me and I can get proper upload/bandwidth. And the next has to do with routing, as metioned by Asellith and dunk.

Hey Asellith,
Yea rogers is in Canada.


The delay is too long for me to be happy with i'll get that fixed asap!

Thanks all for the info! As noted above I'm looking into some hosting options. Right now I'm looking into co-location hosting as I need server space for other projects/businesses I am working on. Any suggestions?

[dunk]

if your needs are simple, http://sites.google.com is free, no ads, etc.
you can park your own domain name there as well if you want.

i use it for documenting a few projects: http://sites.google.com/site/mrdunk/Home


dunk.

[kl22]

thanks dunk,
I'll look into that but I'm looking for something along the lines of actual hosting.

[kl22]

I got some other people to do some trace routes for me outside of Canada (mainly in Europe and US), and they don't seem to be having such a big timing issue that you are getting? I'm trying to find a quick fix, but I think my only option may be to wait until the dedicated hosting starts up.

If there is anyone else reading this in some part of asia can you do a trace route to robotics.pixiq.ca and let me know what you get.

[Soeren]

Hi,

Looks OK from Denmark

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn
  2     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  lo1.bynxx19.ip.tele.dk [80.166.139.157]
  3     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  ge-3-1-0-40.bynxu5.dk.ip.tdc.net [83.88.8.135]
  4    97 ms    96 ms    97 ms  pos7-0-0.nyk2nxg1.us.ip.tdc.net [83.88.26.94]
  5   106 ms   105 ms   116 ms  ix-equinix-ny3.rogers.com [206.223.131.105]
  6   122 ms   122 ms   123 ms  69.63.248.193
  7   116 ms   117 ms   116 ms  pos-0-0.gw01.mtmk.phub.net.cable.rogers.com [66.185.81.130]
  8   124 ms   116 ms   117 ms  gi-3-1.gw03.mtmk.phub.net.cable.rogers.com [66.185.83.246]
  9   116 ms   116 ms   115 ms  gi-1-0-0.cmts03.mtmk.phub.net.cable.rogers.com [66.185.91.13]
 10   123 ms   137 ms   129 ms  CPE002369563281-CM001a66708206.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [99.247.124.218]



Here is a trace to this site (with timeout increased to 10 seconds to no avail) to compare with:

C:\>tracert -w 10000 www.societyofrobots.com

Sporer rute til societyofrobots.com [174.120.175.51]
over et maksimum af 30 hop:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn
  2     8 ms     9 ms     8 ms  lo1.bynxx19.ip.tele.dk [80.166.139.157]
  3     8 ms     8 ms     9 ms  ge-3-1-0-40.bynxu5.dk.ip.tdc.net [83.88.8.135]
  4    24 ms    23 ms    23 ms  pos6-0-0.ldn2nxg1.uk.ip.tdc.net [83.88.12.114]
  5    23 ms    23 ms    56 ms  ge-2-1-0.mpr1.lhr2.uk.above.net [195.66.224.76]
  6    24 ms    24 ms    24 ms  ge-2-1-0.mpr1.lhr2.uk.above.net [64.125.28.141]
  7    99 ms   105 ms    96 ms  so-1-1-0.mpr1.dca2.us.above.net [64.125.31.186]
  8   124 ms   123 ms   123 ms  ge-2-0-0.mpr3.iah1.us.above.net [64.125.25.114]
  9   123 ms   136 ms   123 ms  xe-0-3-0.cr1.iah1.us.above.net [64.125.30.101]
 10   122 ms   122 ms   122 ms  xe-1-1-0.er1.iah1.above.net [64.125.26.222]
 11   128 ms   128 ms   128 ms  209.66.99.94.available.above.net [209.66.99.94]
 12   133 ms   133 ms   133 ms  et5-4.ibr04.dllstx3.theplanet.com [70.87.253.53]
 13   141 ms   141 ms   142 ms  te7-2.dsr01.dllstx3.theplanet.com [70.87.253.10]
 14     *        *        *     Anmodning fik timeout.
 15   160 ms   146 ms   144 ms  te5-1.car12.dllstx6.theplanet.com [70.87.254.226]
 16     *        *        *     Anmodning fik timeout.
 17   142 ms   141 ms   141 ms  33.af.78ae.static.theplanet.com [174.120.175.51]

Seems like strange things happen on ThePlanet
(SoR is the slowest of the sites i go to on a regular base, sometimes I have to give up, even when on a near direct feed to a backbone)

[kl22]

Thanks Soeren,
Seems like the site(http://robotics.pixiq.ca) is okay then? Or did the site take an unreasonable amount of time to load?

The SoR site loads fine for me at all times (I visit this site at least once a day).

[Soeren]

Hi,

This tutorial may seem a little too simple to have its own article

I do agree - now I'm waiting for a tut on boiling water - can be done in so many ways after al l


Meant as a tip... Unless you're working with a friend or several (or suffer from schizophrenia), use "I" instead of "we".

[Soeren]

Hi,

Seems like the site(http://robotics.pixiq.ca) is okay then? Or did the site take an unreasonable amount of time to load?

It loads very quickly browsed from DK, it's like the page just appears *bang* 

The SoR site loads fine for me at all times (I visit this site at least once a day).

Yes, there's Danish sites that I thought was OK untill I browsed them from abroad as well.

Most of the times SoR works, but sometimes it just times out and maybe half an hour later it loads, but it's allways slow compared to any other sites I visit.

[Admin]

the server is hosted from my house... so I only get 1mb/s upload speeds

Yea, it definitely felt like slow loading, versus not responding. The images would take forever to download.

As for hosts, SoR is currently using a VPS (with extras) on hostgator.com. I've been using them for a few months now, and haven't had any problems that weren't quickly/painlessly fixed.

But since you're just hosting a simple blog, you'd probably be fine with their $5/month plan. Just don't do any heavy php or run a forum on it!

[dunk]

weird. most of my 2nd post is missing.
i guess that's what i get for making fun of Admin's internet connection...

so there are a few problems with using Traceroute for this sort of problem diagnosis.

Traceroute by default uses ICMP packets rather than TCP packets on port 80 like your web browser.
ICMP packets are used for passing debug and error messages between connected computers.
TCP is used to pass actual data.

one of the problems is the various routers along the path between your PC and (in this case) http://robotics.pixiq.ca/ might route ICMP and TCP packets by completely different paths.
it is common practice to drop ICMP packets completely rather than send them on. (this is why a Traceroute to societyofrobots.com never gets to the final server.)

also ICMP packets are much smaller than most TCP packets.
large packets get fragmented and reassembled at the destination. ICMP packets are almost always too small to need fragmented.
this means that for some transmission errors and MTU size configuration issues ICMP packets will traverse a network with no problems but a large TCP packet can still fail.


so what tools to use instead?
looking at the options on http://support.microsoft.com/kb/162326 this isn't going to work with the Windows default Traceroute but
on some versions of Traceroute you can force them to use a set protocol and port number.
forcing TCP:80 will make Traceroute more similar to your browser traffic. now at least you can be sure Traceroute's outgoing packets take the same path as those from your web browser. the return packets to Traceroute can still fall prey to the same issues as they are still ICMP.

another thing you can do is see if your version of Traceroute lets you change the packet size.
the default MTU (Maximum Transmission Unit) of ethernet is 1500 bytes so if you force traceroute to send a packet larger than this you can guarantee it will be fragmented as it leaves your computer to be reassembled at the destination host.

you can also see a lot using a packet sniffer on your PC when you try to to connect to a problem website.
see what ICMP errors are coming back. see what delay between outgoing packets and their response.
Wireshark is good. for anyone interested in this stuff i recommend playing with a good packet sniffer.

sometimes the problem cannot be diagnosed from just one end station though.
you would need access to logs on the various routers along the path. time to cross your fingers and hope you ISP is working on the problem.

I think there are two problems, one the server is hosted from my house... so I only get 1mb/s upload speeds.

1Mb upload should be more than enough as long as you aren't getting loads of simultaneous hits.
the other thing to think about is maybe you are using your connection for bandwidth intensive tasks when Admin is trying to connect, blocking his incoming TCP request.
probably not though as it sounds like he's tried on more than one occasion.
your site certainly loads ok for me.
today it's ~1 second for everything.
yesterday it was ~1 second for text and formatting with the images taking ~5 seconds.


dunk.

[Admin]

I tried it again, this time from a different ISP. Took 50 seconds for the page to fully load.

Everything on your front page comes to 1.37mb. So if you have two people accessing your site simultaneously, thats 3 seconds minimum loading time at 1 mb/s.

And actually, you should do a speed test to see if you are actually getting 1 mb/s upload. What your ISP claims will not be what you actually have, for sure.

And Dunk . . . thanks for the explanation!

[dunk]

Seems like strange things happen on ThePlanet
(SoR is the slowest of the sites i go to on a regular base, sometimes I have to give up, even when on a near direct feed to a backbone)

by contrast, SOR is very quick when loaded from Ireland.
ThePlanet appears to be doing strange things with ICMP.
my traceroute below shows all the way to the final server using TCP:80.

Code: [Select]

duncan@lapdancer:~$ sudo traceroute -T -p80 societyofrobots.com
traceroute to societyofrobots.com (174.120.175.51), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
 1  192.168.0.2 (192.168.0.2)  4.066 ms  6.239 ms *
 2  * * *
 3  * * *
 4  * * *
 5  * * *
 6  * d-deg-core1a.magnet.ie (85.91.2.2)  44.263 ms  45.717 ms
 7  d-deg-border1.magnet.ie (85.91.2.77)  46.148 ms  46.597 ms  47.001 ms
 8  xe-0-1-0-208.dub20.ip4.tinet.net (213.200.67.165)  48.087 ms  48.486 ms  48.899 ms
 9  xe-9-2-0.lon10.ip4.tinet.net (89.149.185.165)  56.227 ms xe-10-2-0.lon10.ip4.tinet.net (89.149.185.169)  58.539 ms xe-0-3-0.lon10.ip4.tinet.net (89.149.185.226)  61.154 ms
10  ge-2-3-5-mpr1.lhr3.uk.above.net (213.200.77.78)  63.314 ms ge-2-3-7.mpr1.lhr3.uk.above.net (64.125.12.105)  65.483 ms ge-2-3-5-mpr1.lhr3.uk.above.net (213.200.77.78)  68.618 ms
11  ge-5-1-0.mpr1.lhr2.uk.above.net (64.125.27.149)  71.219 ms  73.787 ms  36.163 ms
12  so-1-1-0.mpr1.dca2.us.above.net (64.125.31.186)  115.852 ms  115.154 ms  115.917 ms
13  ge-2-0-0.mpr3.iah1.us.above.net (64.125.25.114)  152.043 ms  147.501 ms  149.760 ms
14  xe-0-3-0.cr1.iah1.us.above.net (64.125.30.101)  151.963 ms  147.823 ms  146.581 ms
15  xe-0-1-0.er1.iah1.us.above.net (64.125.28.5)  147.741 ms  149.809 ms  147.168 ms
16  209.66.99.94.available.above.net (209.66.99.94)  146.514 ms  147.461 ms  151.052 ms
17  et5-4.ibr04.dllstx3.theplanet.com (70.87.253.53)  149.337 ms  144.692 ms  148.179 ms
18  te7-2.dsr02.dllstx3.theplanet.com (70.87.253.26)  153.561 ms te7-2.dsr01.dllstx3.theplanet.com (70.87.253.10)  148.404 ms 26.ff.5746.static.theplanet.com (70.87.255.38)  147.526 ms
19  * te1-4.dsr01.dllstx2.theplanet.com (70.87.253.114)  143.983 ms  146.137 ms
20  te6-1.car12.dllstx6.theplanet.com (70.87.254.230)  156.737 ms  150.700 ms  151.161 ms
21  33.af.78ae.static.theplanet.com (174.120.175.51)  154.731 ms  146.901 ms  149.254 ms
it's interesting to compare Soeren's Traceroute to mine.
although we both use different Above.net routers in London (line 11 on my Traceroute, line 6 on Soeren's) before going transatlantic it is safe to assume similar characteristics on all Above.net routers as they will all have the same routing policies.
i would speculate Soeren's latency connecting to SOR is caused before he reached Above.net.

if you are interested in this Soeren, it would be interesting to see if you can find any other sites that you connect to through Above.net and see if you experience the same latency.
also see if your other connection you mention shares the same entry point onto Above.net.
all a bit off topic though...


dunk.

[Razor Concepts]

I would avoid the name PRC since it is associated with the Peoples Republic of China...

[kl22]

lol good point, i'm going to rename it to just Pixiq Robotics
Thanks!