Society of Robots - Robot Forum

Electronics => Electronics => Topic started by: madsci1016 on September 06, 2010, 03:04:56 PM

Title: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 06, 2010, 03:04:56 PM
(http://www.billporter.info/wp-content/uploads//2010/09/IMG_3012-Small-150x150.jpg)

I’ve set out designing what I’d like to call Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee. The idea is this, low cost LED matrix driver boards that are easy to work with at (hopefully) around $10 a board including the LED matrix itself.  A similar serial driven LED matrix can go for $35 per 8×8 matrix. That can add up fast if you want to chain more then one together for a large display. Instead, my design is 1/3 the price, and can easily be chained together to create larger displays.

The pictures in the post show version 1 with a red/green LED matrix. My goal was to have a single PCB design that can act as a ’slave’ or as the ‘master’. The master is the board with an Atmega 328 that drives all the boards in the chain. The master also has a 5V 2A voltage regulator circuit to power the entire chain.

As you can see in the pictures, I have version 1 running with an Arduino Duemilanove standing in as the master. I’ve started redesigning for version 2, and I think  I’m going to stray away from a single design PCB, so that the board size can shrink to fit it all behind the LED matrix. But this may drive up the price point. My plans are to open source that hardware design when I’m done, and maybe even selling kits to build your own.

It can also be driven by an Axon, using just 6 I/O lines.

I’d like community input for what you would like to see in a product like this, and if the price point is right. Please feel free to leave comments.

(http://www.billporter.info/wp-content/uploads//2010/09/IMG_3011.jpg)
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: Metal Slug 2 on September 06, 2010, 06:38:31 PM
I for one wouldn't have a problem dropping $30 for two or three of these things!  The price seems very good (compared to the Sparkfun equivalent).
I really like the idea of being able to link them together.

Getting the PCB to fit behind the matrix sounds good, its nice to have compact modules.  Although having it the way it is now allows for easy mounting with double sided foam tape.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 07, 2010, 09:29:29 PM
Man, after maybe 10 hours of Eagle layout, I managed to get all the components of the master to fit behind the small matrix.

(http://www.billporter.info/wp-content/uploads//2010/09/master.png)

Definitely the hardest design I have done yet. The only problem is I could only break out ADC4 and ADC5, besides the 6 pin programming port and Arduino FDTI port, which has the Uart. I figured ADC4,5 where the most useful to breakout if I could only pick two, as they can be digital IO, analog, or I2C bus. There's also the three digital IO you could get from the 6 pin programming port as well.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: Ro-Bot-X on September 08, 2010, 05:18:49 AM
It's perfect! You're the Man!
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 08, 2010, 03:52:20 PM
Hehe, thanks.

I spent about 4 hours cleaning up the design and fixing some dumb decisions by the auto-router. I'm getting ready to send it off to a PCB fab house unless anyone has any other thoughts?

Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: voyager2 on September 09, 2010, 08:11:27 PM
looks good, now just make sure you can get the SoR video game running on one
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: garrettg84 on September 09, 2010, 08:24:05 PM
This looks pretty cool. I like the modular design. The name though, it made me laugh just a bit when I said it out loud. Maybe I'm not pronouncing it correct though. -R- dookie, almost like OUR DOOKIE. Yes, I must have the mind of a 5 year old. Sorry. The name gets me every time I try to say it.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 10, 2010, 07:44:12 AM
 :-\

I guess it can be said that way. I say it " R - dru - key "
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: voyager2 on September 10, 2010, 07:50:05 AM
I have enough trouble saying Arduino...
Arduquee is easier
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 11, 2010, 10:01:19 PM
I severely underestimated how much noise was going to be on the power lines from all the switching going on, I had to add caps to every slave board to help keep it under control.

But it's working well, have a look...

Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee; first words (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMQyje3y1hg#)
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: voyager2 on September 11, 2010, 10:58:41 PM
Looks great!
When are you going to start selling them?
LEDs can be pretty power hungry, doesn't stop me powering 10 off one USB...
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: Metal Slug 2 on September 12, 2010, 04:39:45 AM
Given that a standard USB port can supply up to 500 mA, and an average led can draw 10-30 mA, you could probably get away with powering anywhere between 16-50 leds. :)
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: Ro-Bot-X on September 12, 2010, 06:11:55 AM
Looks really nice! And I saw you pissed off Fritsl... Hehe... He will ban you, your days are numbered...
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: voyager2 on September 12, 2010, 06:27:09 AM
Looks really nice! And I saw you pissed off Fritsl... Hehe... He will ban you, your days are numbered...
Same thing happened to me!
I was deleted, just sign up for a new account, he didn't IP block me or anything.
#1 rule, do NOT disagree with Fritsl
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 12, 2010, 08:21:45 AM
Looks great!
When are you going to start selling them?
LEDs can be pretty power hungry, doesn't stop me powering 10 off one USB...


Given that a standard USB port can supply up to 500 mA, and an average led can draw 10-30 mA, you could probably get away with powering anywhere between 16-50 leds. :)

Very true, and actually it is is possible because there is only ever one row of LEDs on at a time, our eyes just can't see that. So you could probably get away with 4-5 boards running off USB.

Looks really nice! And I saw you pissed off Fritsl... Hehe... He will ban you, your days are numbered...

Call it a social experiment. I also posted it on Sparkfun and Arduino forums, but i bet they don't have a problem with it. Why should I have to make a different video for every board?  If they ban me; their loss. And it would prove LMR is run by a bunch of pricks that don't really care about robotics.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: Admin on September 12, 2010, 09:32:36 AM
Fritsl used to post his robot video ads (http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotforum/index.php?action=search2;params=YWR2YW5jZWR8J3wwfCJ8YnJkfCd8MiwzLDQsNSw2fCJ8c2hvd19jb21wbGV0ZXwnfHwifHN1YmplY3Rfb25seXwnfHwifHNvcnR8J3xyZWxldmFuY2V8Inxzb3J0X2RpcnwnfGRlc2N8InxzZWFyY2h8J3xGcml0c2w=) here on SoR just to advertise his site. I never removed them 'cause I'm a benevolent admin. :P

If he makes you mad, just post this on his site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case)

 ;)
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 12, 2010, 09:46:10 AM
Fritsl used to post his robot video ads (http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotforum/index.php?action=search2;params=YWR2YW5jZWR8J3wwfCJ8YnJkfCd8MiwzLDQsNSw2fCJ8c2hvd19jb21wbGV0ZXwnfHwifHN1YmplY3Rfb25seXwnfHwifHNvcnR8J3xyZWxldmFuY2V8Inxzb3J0X2RpcnwnfGRlc2N8InxzZWFyY2h8J3xGcml0c2w=) here on SoR just to advertise his site. I never removed them 'cause I'm a benevolent admin. :P

Wow no joke, he used to plaster LMR all over SOR forums! This is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: voyager2 on September 12, 2010, 07:17:01 PM
If he makes you mad, just post this on his site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case)

 ;)
Who volunteers? ;)
Probably IP block us all!
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 22, 2010, 01:48:54 PM
This should cause some chuckles. My first attempts at animation. I was trying to make it so they looked like they were walking, but instead I think I created the first SOR line dancers. I'm no good at this creating animations thing.

(There's an audio swap pending for some matching dance music. Youtube is slow)

Society of Robots Line Dancers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-9x0Fl7Gi8#)

You might not find this amusing as I do, but I'm hoped up on steroids, antibiotics and a handful of other medications with a fever of 101; I think it's funny.

Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: Metal Slug 2 on September 22, 2010, 04:59:54 PM
You might not find this amusing as I do, but I'm hoped up on steroids, antibiotics and a handful of other medications with a fever of 101; I think it's funny.
...yea I was beginning to wonder what happened...

JK ;D

Seriously though, thats looking really good!

I even found something kool in your animation:  Pause the video at around 5-6 seconds... the resulting image of the led's begin turned off and on and being caught in the same frame by your camera produces what looks to be a space-invaders style mother ship of some sorts...or a StarCraft II Battlecruiser... ;D
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 22, 2010, 06:12:21 PM
I assume you mean this frame:

(http://www.billporter.info/wp-content/uploads//2010/09/alien.png)

hehe, cool.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: Metal Slug 2 on September 22, 2010, 06:17:26 PM
yep, thats the one =P
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 23, 2010, 08:34:07 PM
I'm excited. 

But first, got my v2 boards in today so expect some photos of v2 soon. (big difference is board fits fully behind matrix now, nothing sticks out)

Back to excitement.

Finally hashed out price list. Using ebay prices for LED matrix (instead of SFE), parts for slave board come to $6.50, master comes to $12.

That's just all the parts. I'll have to add my shipping costs in there, and maybe a buck or two to cover my dev costs, but i think $10-12 for slave and $15-18 for master are definitely feasible. Eat your heart out SFE.

Would anyone be interested in buying a few early kits to evaluate it for me? Ease of soldering, problems you have, etc? Wish I could give them out free, but I've already spent too much on this as it is.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: rbtying on September 23, 2010, 11:38:23 PM
I'd be interested, but would it be full price?  We can negotiate more over PM, if you want.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: chelmi on September 24, 2010, 09:37:21 AM
Would anyone be interested in buying a few early kits to evaluate it for me? Ease of soldering, problems you have, etc? Wish I could give them out free, but I've already spent too much on this as it is.

Definitely interested, leave me a PM.

Chelmi.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: galannthegreat on September 24, 2010, 12:24:36 PM
I'd be interested, definitely an awesome project. Plus I need something to advertise in my dorm window ;D

Will you work on an RGB one? Cause that would be really cool too... as if it already isn't cool enough.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 24, 2010, 12:41:24 PM
Will you work on an RGB one? Cause that would be really cool too... as if it already isn't cool enough.

Plan on it, but that would be long term. The RGB one would only be 7 color, since you couldn't PWM the way i am wiring everything. Would only 7 color be worth the effort?

Man, the responses are very encouraging, glad a lot of people would like this. As far as prices, i'd say $8 per slave board, and $13 for the master should help cover my shipping costs, and i can ship out to you as cheaply as possible. But this is just early tester prices, when/if i retail this, it would be more like $10/15.

I've setup an email, arduquee(at)billporter.info. Everyone interested please email me there with the quantities you would want so i can figure out the quantity of parts i need.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: galannthegreat on September 24, 2010, 12:51:31 PM
Yea, totally, 7 colours would be sweet. Definitely more than this one (http://www.staples.ca/ENG/Catalog/cat_sku.asp?CatIds=&webid=437825&affixedcode=WW (http://www.staples.ca/ENG/Catalog/cat_sku.asp?CatIds=&webid=437825&affixedcode=WW))... and cheaper... and way cooler.

But I'd say what you have now is definitely perfect, just an idea.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 24, 2010, 12:59:36 PM
This?
(http://s7d5.scene7.com/is/image/Staples/s0060901_sc7?$sku$)

the link you posted is blocked, probably the .ca thing.

Arduquee would definitely be better, open source; you can hack it anyway you want.

And I did just come up with an idea to get more colors, even using the current bi-color matrix. Same kind of thing in the picture where you have more options between full red and full green, i'll have to test it this weekend.

Wow three emails in five minutes! You guys rock.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: galannthegreat on September 24, 2010, 01:07:44 PM
Yep, that one, it's very expensive for what it is. I tried bargaining a little while back with the manager at staples saying how long I saw this one sitting here in store... it had a thick layer of dust on top... I said "100 bucks and I'll take it off your hands". He didn't like that very much ;D

And I did just come up with an idea to get more colors, even using the current bi-color matrix. Same kind of thing in the picture where you have more options between full red and full green, i'll have to test it this weekend. 

Can't wait to see it!
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: galannthegreat on September 24, 2010, 01:17:04 PM
Oh, I know why it blocked that link, I put in my postal code (I don't know why they want that, marketing maybe) and it saved to my IP.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 27, 2010, 05:31:36 PM
Thanks for the emails guys. I plan on having the evaluation kits together in a few weeks, but don't hold me to it. I'm still trying to find a cheap and reliable source for the LED matrices.

Assembled a V2 Slave board. Have a look.
(http://www.billporter.info/wp-content/uploads//2010/09/IMG_3025-Small.jpg)
(http://www.billporter.info/wp-content/uploads//2010/09/IMG_3027-Small.jpg)

More pics on my website.  (http://www.billporter.info/?p=374)

Not sure I like the Cap on the back, but i don't know what else to do with it.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: Admin on September 27, 2010, 05:36:30 PM
Not sure I like the Cap on the back, but i don't know what else to do with it.
You have plenty more room - get several SMD caps of smaller value and put them in parallel.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 27, 2010, 05:41:12 PM
You have plenty more room - get several SMD caps of smaller value and put them in parallel.

I thought of that but i was trying to keep SMD to a minimum to make it easier for people to solder it together. (and maybe price? would several SMD caps cost more then a single 10uF cap?)

Opinions needed. Leave the big cap the stick out a little, but is easier to solder, or change to many SMD caps?
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: galannthegreat on September 27, 2010, 05:54:35 PM
They would probably be cheaper if you were to order per reel.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: Admin on September 27, 2010, 06:02:01 PM
I think mouser.com can tell you whats cheaper :P
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 27, 2010, 06:03:44 PM
Opinions needed. Leave the big cap the stick out a little, but is easier to solder, or change to many SMD caps?

Still need thoughts on this though. Also, i'd have to go through another design and verification cycle if i changed to SMD caps.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 27, 2010, 08:26:48 PM
I think mouser.com can tell you whats cheaper :P

You know how much I love  (http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotforum/index.php?topic=12045.0)Mouser.

Also, did you see that digi-key added sort by price now?

But anyway, back on topic. It's more a question if you guys think that cap will really be an issue for people. It is stopping the whole board from laying flat, but does that matter?
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: galannthegreat on September 27, 2010, 08:39:21 PM
Could you move the smaller coupling capacitor over a bit and fold the electrolytic over?
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 27, 2010, 08:41:42 PM
Could you move the smaller coupling capacitor over a bit and fold the electrolytic over?

I'm already using a very short 10uF cap, so that wouldn't buy much more.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 27, 2010, 08:49:56 PM
Hmm, how about Multi-layer Ceramic caps?

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=445-1371-1-ND (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=445-1371-1-ND)

Can anyone with experience tell me if they equal electrolytic in surge suppression?
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: chelmi on September 27, 2010, 09:39:41 PM
Thanks for the emails guys. I plan on having the evaluation kits together in a few weeks, but don't hold me to it. I'm still trying to find a cheap and reliable source for the LED matrices.

I bought one from these guys http://www.sureelectronics.net/goods.php?id=230 (http://www.sureelectronics.net/goods.php?id=230) a year ago (they used to sell they individually) and they were good. Shipping takes some times but it not as bad as Futurlec. I also bought a pack of 100 LEDs and they all work perfectly.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 27, 2010, 09:46:55 PM
Dang, same ones I bought off ebay, but half the price! Thanks chelmi.

That makes the most expensive part a shift register, at least on the slave boards anyway.

My next problem will be getting more SMD Atmega328s. Glad I bought a handful from Sparkfun when I did.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: Admin on September 28, 2010, 08:25:20 AM
Hmm, how about Multi-layer Ceramic caps?

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=445-1371-1-ND (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=445-1371-1-ND)

Can anyone with experience tell me if they equal electrolytic in surge suppression?
Ceramics are much better than electrolytics for surge suppression, but the disadvantage is ceramics need to be much bigger to hold the same charge. Tantelum capacitors have the best of both worlds, but they cost much more. I use tantelums on my Axon II.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 28, 2010, 10:31:50 AM
, but the disadvantage is ceramics need to be much bigger to hold the same charge.

Mmm, well I found 10uF SMD ones for 6V, so that should cover it. I just ordered a handful from Digi-key to try out.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 28, 2010, 06:03:30 PM
Grrr.

Apparently I missed the fact the ebay matrices are cathode columns, my design (and the $5 sparkfun matrices) are cathode rows. 

Anyone know of a cheaper source of LED matrices that are cathode rows? Also, anyone want to buy 20 LED matrices?

I emailed the supplier directly to see if they are willing to sell to me directly, but i doubt it (yep, no dice). If i have to change my design, it will be a real challenge. I will have to start looking at different shift registers with higher current ratings. I was able to make cheap shortcuts with the SFE configuration.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: Admin on September 28, 2010, 08:26:14 PM
If it makes you feel better, it took me 7 prototypes and quite a lot of mistake money just to get the Axon designed. Then another 3 prototypes for the Axon II.

The Sabertooth motordriver took 27 prototypes :-X
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 28, 2010, 08:37:08 PM
If it makes you feel better,

It does.

My first brush with redesign during prototyping. This is life I guess. It sucks that this will mean I'll have to increase final prices a bit to get back dev costs.

27? really? Dang, well at least the end result was a rock solid motor controller.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: GearMotion on September 29, 2010, 07:57:34 AM
Also, anyone want to buy 20 LED matrices?

Only if they are ridiculously cheap. :-D

Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on September 29, 2010, 08:06:06 AM
I'm going to  have to redesign. No way will I produce a product that ties the customer to an over priced single source for LED matrices. (I really don't like Sparkfun)

Stay tuned guys, it might be another month before I have kits ready.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: Admin on October 04, 2010, 10:04:10 AM
Don't you just hate free-market competition? :-X

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/news.php?id=452 (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/news.php?id=452)

Controlling RGB LED Matrices (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4-ZogKIbeU#)
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on October 04, 2010, 10:10:34 AM
Don't you just hate free-market competition? :-X

Not when the competition is $60 per 8x8 matrix when mine will be 1/3 that price.  :P

I've been aware of the SFE designed boards, but they are over-engineered with a Atmega chip for each matrix, and overpriced.

My design is a single Atmega for the whole 'chain', only costing $6-8 in parts per board, not counting the LED matrix itself, but those can be had on eBay cheaply.

Thanks for the link though, I'm going to add a comment to the post.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on October 14, 2010, 05:54:00 PM
Update guys:

Got the PCB in for the design that goes against the spec sheet current limits (and better judgment) and wouldn't you guess it? It doesn't work! Well, it lights, but it's obvious the IC is limiting current because of dim rows that vary brightness based off how many are lit in a row.

O well, I had to confirm the cheapest option doesn't work.

But never fear! I found a high current sourcing IC, and the design is being fabbed right now! Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on October 19, 2010, 04:56:22 PM
Still waiting on PCBs for new design.

Update though, tried both my ideas for PWM color control, and both failed. The AVR isn't fast enough for more then one matrix. O well.

This means only three colors available on the bi-color screen, and 7 on the future RGB matrix.

Hope this isn't a turn off for too many potential customers.
Title: Re: Arduquee, a Arduino powered Marquee
Post by: madsci1016 on October 28, 2010, 10:04:01 PM
Early Arduquee on my costume:

http://www.billporter.info/led-lab-coat-3-0/ (http://www.billporter.info/led-lab-coat-3-0/)