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Electronics => Electronics => Topic started by: wheelyneil on September 14, 2009, 08:38:05 PM

Title: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 14, 2009, 08:38:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/user/roadrambler4u#play/all/uploads-all/0/q4WPnyejodU (http://www.youtube.com/user/roadrambler4u#play/all/uploads-all/0/q4WPnyejodU)

Hello All

I am New here but I thought it would be a good place to start.

In the video the engine will be hooked to a generator. I need to maintain 1200 rpm's all the time. Can anyone share a Circuit that I could build to run a servo to control the speed.

I have a Futaba s3003 servo and was trying to build a circuit with a voltage divider and 555 timer but it just was not stable.
and I know just enough about robots and electronics to know that if you see smoke it's toooooooo late.... :-[ ::) :-\ :'(

Anyways anyone that would care to to give me a shout out and help  would be great.

take care all
wheelyneil

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: madsci1016 on September 14, 2009, 09:33:50 PM
First, why 1200 rpm's? If you are building a generator, you need it to run at 1800 rpm (for 60 Hz) or 1500 (for 50 Hz), so how are you getting 1200?

Second, any speed controller will have to have feedback from the engine on how fast it is spinning. As you add electrical load, the engine will start to slow down, the servo will have to move to allow more throttle. How is it going to know the engine is slowing down? Answer me this and i will see if i can help.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 14, 2009, 10:12:02 PM
Hello and thanks for responding,

First off I live in the USA our electric is on 60hz -my gen is 6 pole and needs 1200 rpm to hold 240vac.

the circuit I was working on was pluged into the gen output of 120vac.  Then rectified to pulse 5v dc then filtered with a cap 1uf then this voltage was hooked up to a 555 timer circuit with my signal volts adjusted to 1.6v reference for servo motor to nutrual position.

When load changes or rpm goes up or down  the circuit was supposed to drive the servo so it would increase and decrease carbi.

Thats about as easy as I can explain. But just couldnt get it stable it was all over the place moving the servo arm.

Thanks
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on September 15, 2009, 01:05:09 PM
Hi,


[...] needs 1200 rpm to hold 240vac.

the circuit I was working on was pluged into the gen output of 120vac.
Are we talking 240V or 120V?


Then rectified to pulse 5v dc then filtered with a cap 1uf then this voltage was hooked up to a 555 timer circuit with my signal volts adjusted to 1.6v reference for servo motor to nutrual position.

When load changes or rpm goes up or down  the circuit was supposed to drive the servo so it would increase and decrease carbi.

Thats about as easy as I can explain. But just couldnt get it stable it was all over the place moving the servo arm.
Either the sensing was erratic (due to noise and transients), or perhaps the regulation loop was continuously overshooting - probably a bit of each.

For the speed sensing
You could either tap the generator for a signal, take it through a voltage divider and then through a pulse former to get a clean and predictable pulse train at the frequency of the generator.
Or...
Make an infrared sensor to read a disk (or the pulley in front) painted with black and white sections.

When you have the pulses proportional to engine speed, you can either use them like that using a microcontroller or you can integrate the signal to get a signal for an analog circuit.

Then drive the servo, a DC motor or whatever with a circuit that regulates relative to the error signal (i.e. the absolute difference between the wanted speed and the instantaneous speed, like the "P" (for proportional) in a PID control, or something similar. IOW, if the difference is large, a large regulation is in order, when the difference is small, the regulation must be small as well.

Hope this makes sense to you.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 15, 2009, 02:41:29 PM
Hi,


[...] needs 1200 rpm to hold 240vac.

the circuit I was working on was plug ed into the gen output of 120vac.
Are we talking 240V or 120V?

240v max output

but using 120v for circuit Vcc down to 5 vdc

Then rectified to pulse 5v dc then filtered with a cap 1uf then this voltage was hooked up to a 555 timer circuit with my signal volts adjusted to 1.6v reference for servo motor to nutrual position.

When load changes or rpm goes up or down  the circuit was supposed to drive the servo so it would increase and decrease carbi.

Thats about as easy as I can explain. But just couldn't get it stable it was all over the place moving the servo arm.
Either the sensing was erratic (due to noise and transients), or perhaps the regulation loop was continuously overshooting - probably a bit of each.

For the speed sensing
You could either tap the generator for a signal, take it through a voltage divider and then through a pulse former to get a clean and predictable pulse train at the frequency of the generator.
Or...
Make an infrared sensor to read a disk (or the pulley in front) painted with black and white sections.

When you have the pulses proportional to engine speed, you can either use them like that using a microcontroller or you can integrate the signal to get a signal for an analog circuit.

Then drive the servo, a DC motor or whatever with a circuit that regulates relative to the error signal (i.e. the absolute difference between the wanted speed and the instantaneous speed, like the "P" (for proportional) in a PID control, or something similar. IOW, if the difference is large, a large regulation is in order, when the difference is small, the regulation must be small as well.

Hope this makes sense to you.

Yes it does make sense the only thing is I am very limited on on electronics and micro controls.

Could you direct me to a diagram  or circuit drawing that I could use.
I like both your ideas.

Thanks for your input
anyone please send me to find a good stable circuit to servo contoll this engine I really need help with this.

thanks so much.

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: madsci1016 on September 15, 2009, 10:12:52 PM
Hello and thanks for responding,

First off I live in the USA our electric is on 60hz -my gen is 6 pole and needs 1200 rpm to hold 240vac.

the circuit I was working on was pluged into the gen output of 120vac.  Then rectified to pulse 5v dc then filtered with a cap 1uf then this voltage was hooked up to a 555 timer circuit with my signal volts adjusted to 1.6v reference for servo motor to nutrual position.

When load changes or rpm goes up or down  the circuit was supposed to drive the servo so it would increase and decrease carbi.

Thats about as easy as I can explain. But just couldnt get it stable it was all over the place moving the servo arm.

Thanks
Neil

This kind of control would not work for a number of reasons, the first being that speed of generator is not directly proportional to output voltage ( i'm assuming this is what your circuit was comparing, you were not clear). Also, if you electrical end has a voltage regulator, it would try to adjust voltage on it's own, and they fact that it is trying to fix voltage and your servo is trying to correct it as well could be causing issues.

I am surprised that you are using a 6 pole end, these are rare as many engines have low efficiency at that speed. Have you looked at your engines efficiency or power versus rpm graph? Professionally built generators usually run at 1800 rpm for Diesel and 3600 rpm for gasoline / natural gas as those are near the engines sweet spot in output power.

I can't think of a way to do it easily without a micro-controller. (maybe mechanically using a vacuum hose from your intake system; as the engine slows down, vacuum pressure drops, so have the drop in pressure result in a increase of throttle. )

You could look at this project, http://www.ikalogic.com/d_tach.php (http://www.ikalogic.com/d_tach.php) , change it a bit to operate a servo instead.

Disclaimer: My family owns and operates a generator sales and service business. I grew up working on generators.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 15, 2009, 10:40:28 PM
Thank you for the info I think that a hall effect circuit could do it. I just want the circuit to hold the RPM as close and as fast as it can. Here is a link that shows my engine and genhead that is run off a wood gasifier.

http://picasaweb.google.com/neilball34606/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCPDd3JifvqaRPw&pli=1&gsessionid=xmlcgk76ZzgOzzI0uUcwYA# (http://picasaweb.google.com/neilball34606/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCPDd3JifvqaRPw&pli=1&gsessionid=xmlcgk76ZzgOzzI0uUcwYA#)

I just want to hold 1200 rpm the best I can with this genset without pulley control. I know a servo controlled circuit can do it!

Hey thanks so much for your help.


any more input would be welcome

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Daanii on September 16, 2009, 10:55:08 AM
A Hall-effect sensor will let you find the revolutions per minute.  But I don't think you can do what you want to do with an analog circuit.  As MadSci says, you really need a microcontroller to do the calculating and drive your servo motor.  That means writing some software.  Can you handle that?  Or is that why you're looking for an analog circuit? 
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on September 16, 2009, 03:40:47 PM
Hi,

Oh please... This is as easy (or hard, whatever your bias) to do in analog as it is in digital.
A Hall sensor is just fine for picking up engine RPM.
I'll look into it tomorrow - it's bedtime here.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 16, 2009, 04:24:26 PM
Hello and thanks  for the help.
 Let me clear a couple things up.


1 I need to maintain 1200 rpm's with my engine.
2.I want to use a electronic type control with a servo to hold engine speed.
3 The Alternator has a Voltage regulator to help stabilize output when rpm's change.
4 I need the help of people that have way more know how then I have.
5 I have some knowledge of basic electronics but thats all.
6 I don't know how to code or write software.
7 I really would like to use a microcontroller and servo but any circuit that will get the job done with a servo futaba s3003 will work.
8 I do understand that a hall effect sensor circuit uses the magnetic pickup to send a signal, but where it sends it and how to make a servo do it's thing I'm clueless.
9 I am looking for the easiest way -- be it digital or analog.

10 AND MOST OF ALL PLEASE EXPLAIN THINGS LIKE I KNOW NOTHING WHICH IS JUST ABOUT TRUE WHEN IT COMES TO ROBOTICS AND CONTROLLERS AND SUCH. ::)

Thanks so much for all the input and help.
And I am watching and trying to learn.

Take care
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: kd5kfl on September 16, 2009, 06:19:33 PM
what you are designing is a closed loop servo

what you need is a phase locked loop

the frequency source would be the ignition pulses of the engine, or a clear wheel with evenly spaced stripes interrupting a photo sensor, or a solid wheel with evenly spaced holes illuminating a photo sensor, or...

the DC output would feed a linear actuator or RC servo.

no, I won't hold your hand and step you through this process.

there is a a commercial product which does this. it's called a cruise control. available at any junkyard.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 16, 2009, 07:02:24 PM
Hello and thank you!

I hope I have not made anyone mad and I know there are cruise controls at the junk yard.

I was trying to see if there is a circuit that anyone could make at home.
Sorry if I am so far below you in electronic know how.


and I wouldnt hold your hand , unless your a lady?

I'm just asking questions and learning a little.

Peace 
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Daanii on September 16, 2009, 07:27:27 PM
As I am sure you are learning, this forum can be an unfriendly place.  

Good luck with your project.  I looked at the video and pictures.  Looks interesting.  
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 17, 2009, 10:36:54 AM
As I am sure you are learning, this forum can be an unfriendly place.  

Good luck with your project.  I looked at the video and pictures. looks interesting.  

Thanks Daanii

You know I have studied Basic electronics, but no education in controllers micro chip coding.

Why do so many people look down their nose if you are trying to learn.

Anyways thanks for your support.


Take care
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on September 17, 2009, 11:08:28 AM
Hi,

Does your motor have a magnetic pick-up (Hall switch) allready?
If so, it is possible to tap the signal from that.

A Hall switch can also be used (with a biasing magnet) to tap a signal of a much higher frequency from a cog wheel or similar if one is reachable and you can mount it in a stable and safe way.

Perhaps a Hall pick-up from the junkyard could be adapted easily, as it has got mounting holes and it's made for a rugged environment, so should be a good choice.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 17, 2009, 11:49:30 AM
Hi,

Does your motor have a magnetic pick-up (Hall switch) allready?
If so, it is possible to tap the signal from that.

It does have a hall effect ignition just like the picture here.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 18, 2009, 04:43:47 PM
Okay here is the question.

Is there a hall effect PLL servo controll circuit that anyone knows of ?

I would think that one of the robot guys could come up with something to govern a V8 engine that anyone could build at home.

Just a little servo moving back and forth holding a rpm.


I don't know but asking again.

please don't take offence to this post please I'm trying to find away to do this in a circuit that would be open source for all to have.

regards wheelyneil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Daanii on September 18, 2009, 05:39:09 PM
I would think that one of the robot guys could come up with something to govern a V8 engine that anyone could build at home.

The problem is, there is no simple circuit to do what you want.  You are right that solving the problem is not very hard.  But you need some basic skills to figure out how to do it, and you then need to spend some time doing it.  That's why you are not getting the response you want here. 

It's like this.  Take the engine you repaired for your project.  I could buy a broken engine like that, and then ask you to tell me how to fix it.  But you could not help me much.  I don't have the tools, or the knowledge, to make use of what you tell me. 

That's what kd5kfl was getting at.  As he says, a cruise control comes closest to what you want to do.  But it's not close enough that anyone could just give you instructions on how to use it to do what you want.  Other solutions will probably be even harder. 

In my opinion, that's no excuse for snotty comments.  Still, I think that's the reason why you aren't getting what you want. 
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on September 18, 2009, 07:24:50 PM
Hi,

Take a look at this: http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Speed_Governor.pdf (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Speed_Governor.pdf) and tell me if you are able to build this.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 19, 2009, 11:40:25 AM
OMG thank you so much.

 Sorren if this takes care of what I am trying to do? I will scream --HE'S THE MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is all I wanted was a circuit I could build and try to make it work.

I will proto it up on a board and see what I get.

I understand why it is hard for some to respond and help me. But building a circuit and really understanding what is happening in it is very different.

As I build I can look at each componet and read what its is doing then as I move through the diagram hopfully I will learn tons of info.

I think this is how many learn. You can have theory but building  it helps me much more.

I may get it write and have some problems along the way, but if the circuit is acting up then I could come ask opinions on it.


Hey I Just wanted to say thanks and hope I didn't offend any one.

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 19, 2009, 11:47:15 AM
Soeren sorry for the Misspelled name.

I was just over wellmed to see what  may be my answer.

Thanks so much!

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: kd5kfl on September 19, 2009, 11:52:48 AM
it wasn't a snotty comment, it was experience. way too many people want you to design a 30 node wirelress mesh with a RADIUS server and VPN and can you have that by noon, I'm kinda busy here. just nip that in the bud.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 19, 2009, 12:12:28 PM
Hi,

Take a look at this: http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Speed_Governor.pdf (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Speed_Governor.pdf) and tell me if you are able to build this.



Hello again I guess I should have looked closer at the circuit. Do you have the missing values for some of the resistors and caps and op amps ECT?

Thanks
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 19, 2009, 12:25:54 PM
it wasn't a snotty comment, it was experience. way too many people want you to design a 30 node wirelress mesh with a RADIUS server and VPN and can you have that by noon, I'm kinda busy here. just nip that in the bud.

Hello kd5kfl

No probs here man thank you for your suggestion.

If you notice I asked about the pll circuit with a Hall trigger back a few posts ago.

But having a circuit to work on is really what I wanted. 

Hopfully I can get it done with  everyones suggestions.

Peace.

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on September 19, 2009, 03:43:30 PM
Hi,


[..] I guess I should have looked closer at the circuit. Do you have the missing values for some of the resistors and caps and op amps ECT?
It isn't a done and ready circuit (yet), I just posted it to hear if you are up to building something like this (if you aren't, there's no use in spending more time on it).
What I did made so far (when I posted it) is not calculated for the voltages I assume and smaller changes should be made, but it will be about the same level of complication.


A couple of questions that I need answered to finish the circuit:
- Can you work from a schematic?
- Can you make a PCB if you have the design?
- Do you have the battery charged from a generator on the motor via a charge controller?
- Do you have a DMM?
- Do you have access to an oscilloscope?
- What magnitude of voltage does the Hall device give (5V/12V/Other)?
- Do you perhaps know the output impedance of the Hall device?
- Are you prepared on a bit of prototype development (where I guide you and you do the measurements)?
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 19, 2009, 05:48:30 PM
A couple of questions that I need answered to finish the circuit:
- Can you work from a schematic?--------yes

- Can you make a PCB if you have the design?-----I have never done it! But photo etching a plate I would give   it a whirl!

- Do you have the battery charged from a generator on the motor via a charge controller?--Yes via normal altantor on the v8

- Do you have a DMM?-----Yes


- Do you have access to an oscilloscope? NO! Am trying to get one local above 20 mhz and I really need to see the signals.

 
- What magnitude of voltage does the Hall device give (5V/12V/Other)? I was waiting to buy one to fit spec's on desighn.

- Do you perhaps know the output impedance of the Hall device? Not until I get what the circuit needs

- Are you prepared on a bit of prototype development (where I guide you and you do the measurements)?
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 19, 2009, 05:51:03 PM
ooops missed one

- Are you prepared on a bit of prototype development (where I guide you and you do the measurements)? yes what ever is needed.


Thanks Again

Neil

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 19, 2009, 06:15:10 PM
Soeren
I wanted to get back with you about the questions on the hall effect switch sensor. I was confused and wasn't sure if you are wanting to use the signal From the current ignition  used.

Sorry for the mix up!

If you are asking about the one being used in the distributor as the reference signal that is used for the ignition that is on the engine now?  --------No I don't have manufacture specs on it for you. And not sure if I can find them.

But I will try!

Thanks
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on September 19, 2009, 07:16:43 PM
Hi,

- What magnitude of voltage does the Hall device give (5V/12V/Other)? I was waiting to buy one to fit spec's on desighn.
To cut through any doubts, I'm talking about the one in the distributor. With a Hall allready there, it would be crazy not to take advantage of it, since it's allready sitting there in a safe and sound way.

Of the two cables going from the distributor to the electronics box, one will likely be connected to either ground or B+ with the other carrying the Hall signal.
It's this signal that can be used, but you need to know what the other wire is connected to (B-, B+ or some intermediate). That should be easy to find out with your DMM (set to DC, 20V range), as well as finding out the approximate amplitude of the signal (with the DMM set to AC on the 20V range).
In both instances, use the black lead connected to the motor body and probe with the red lead.

I assume one wire is grounded (through the electronics box perhaps) and the other wire to carry a signal of 5V peak.
http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Techbk/94/94hg4b.pdf (http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Techbk/94/94hg4b.pdf) page 6, item #11, the two terminals with screws facing outwards through the distributor body.

However it's made and is working, it can be used as the sensor for the servo controller (while still fullfilling its intended job) and you have the added safety in the fact that, if the motor's running, the speed governor will get its pulses as well. It is simply a matter of designing the input side for this.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 20, 2009, 09:18:36 AM
Hello Soeren

I will check on the connection out of the distributor.  And let you know, and will check voltages and magnitude with DMM. Thanks!

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 20, 2009, 11:26:25 AM
Hello Soeren

Here are the Voltage readings! while engine is running!

Input to hall 12Vdc or battery voltage.

Output while engine is running 3.12 vdc

Readings on lowest AC scale  fluctuating from 6.00 to 9.05

The Hall effect sensor input voltage come from B+

Here is the full wiring diagram of the ignition so you can see where output go.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 20, 2009, 11:38:07 AM
Hello Just wanted to post this link so you can see what you are working on.

It is a wood gasifier Genset. It runs off bio mass and is clean energy.

http://picasaweb.google.com/neilball34606/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCPDd3JifvqaRPw&pli=1&gsessionid=xmlcgk76ZzgOzzI0uUcwYA# (http://picasaweb.google.com/neilball34606/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCPDd3JifvqaRPw&pli=1&gsessionid=xmlcgk76ZzgOzzI0uUcwYA#)

take care

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on September 20, 2009, 07:57:28 PM
Hi Neil,

That's something to work from. The output from the Hall will depend on the dwell of course and it will show less on a DC range, as the meter will try to integrate the signal (how precise it gets the result will vary from one DMM to the next).

The 6V to 9V on the AC range, was those fluctuations from a steady RPM, perhaps idle, or did it cover a range of speeds?

You'll have to wait some days for my next post I'm afraid - a quick nap and a haircut and I'm off to Belgium on a seminar (and I'll be too busy during the day and too *censored* in the evening, to go online).
I'll be back home Wednesday very late, so won't get around to posting until Thursday (that won't keep me from tumbling ideas though and I'll have time to kill on the plane anyway).

I could make a circuit for you to test the Hall output if that would help?
1200 RPM equals 80 Hz, so with a fairly simple circuit you could listen for a buzz from 33Hz up (assuming an idle of 500 RPM).
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 21, 2009, 11:18:37 AM
Hello Soeren

Thanks for letting me know, about your trip. I also am going to be tied up more than expected.

I Will be having Heart testing over the next 2 weeks stress test and cathing of my heart to see why I have been having chest pain. So I am a little side tracked my self.
The AC did come from a fluctuating rpm the engine only ran for a few moments long enough to take those couple test voltages and then it stalled.

But I thought I had good enough readings and I had to stop as my better half was not happy with me working on the engine and wanted me to stop until I find out about my heart.

I told her I was just taking reading nothing strenuous be she would not have it......she just doesn't want anything to happen.

If you care to send me a circuit to build that I can use to get a better out put reading would be fine. my DMM is a inexpensive model so I'm sure it has it's limitations. And any circuit that I have to build will teach me more.

So you have a good trip and we will start again soon.

Take  Care Soeren

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 22, 2009, 04:13:24 PM
Bump
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 24, 2009, 10:50:53 AM
Hey Soeren

How was your trip? Hope all went well.

I was going to ask if I should purchase the 4093n now or wait a bit.

Let me know when you get a chance.

Take care
Neil
 

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on September 24, 2009, 03:40:20 PM
Hi Neil,

How was your trip? Hope all went well.

I was going to ask if I should purchase the 4093n now or wait a bit.
Thanks, all went according to plan (it was a round table "job" about some severely difficult medical cases we're having, with attendants from as far as South Africa, Bulgaria, Saudi Arabia and several European countries - I'm from DK btw.).

I think you should pay attention to your SO, you need your own ticker in order to make the motor tick after all ;)

I don't know your situation, but if you have to order the 4093 online or strain yourself getting it, just wait 'till you have a green light from the doctor(s) - 4093's are easier to come by than hearts.

In case you need (or are ordered to take :)) a pause, you can allways drop me an email at Spambox(at)im26y(dot)com when you feel ready for more.

I'll slap something simple together to aid in getting the Hall info needed. Today I'm kind of used up though, had 2½ hour overtime and then an hour on the phone with my brother - well had a good 8 hours of sleep, but had to stretch it over 3 nights, so I think I'll spoil myself with 5 hours tonight ;D

Will try to post a circuit tomorrow.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 24, 2009, 06:39:10 PM
Hello Soeren

Thank you for your concern and kind words, actually working on a circuit is as easy as I can take it. Most of the time I'm welding and moving steel so working at the proto board keeps my mind off Doctors needles and all that fun.

I have all my testing next Monday if he puts me in the Hospital I'll let you know.

Glad things went well on your trip and you are home safe.  Get some good rest now.

  And when ever you can put something together to test that hall out put will be great. 

Just so you know that output voltage measurement was taken from the external lug on the outside of distributor opposite the input voltage lug.

I have a Electronics supplier local and I can get most things in a day or two, when needed. And I'm not sure if I mentioned it, but I am in the state of Florida ,USA so you know what part of the world I'm from.


Hope to hear from you soon.
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 25, 2009, 02:23:55 PM
Hello Soeren

Just a quick question.

What voltage level should I be seeing at the output of the hall switch when engine is running?

I think the signal I read was 3.12vdc

Just wondering ?

Neil



 

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on September 25, 2009, 07:53:12 PM
Hi Neil,

This should help:
http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/V8-Hall-Tester.pdf (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/V8-Hall-Tester.pdf)
The probe can be any pointed thing that you can get into the Hall output connector.

A 32 Ohm (or thereabouts) should be connected between HP and B- and you should be able to hear the ignition pulse frequency (which is 4* the RPM [or rather RPS] of course).

If you don't get any sound from it, it's just as successfull, as this is just to establish the signal from the Hall. It might be hard to hear from the sound of the exhaust of course, but since it's a higher frequency, I think it's possible to get a decent result.

Let me know if you have any problems with it.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 25, 2009, 08:53:28 PM
HI Soeren

I will put it together and see what happens.

So when the resistor is placed between HP and B- the circuit will make noise........Imagine that!

Hey I'll let you know.

Thank you

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on September 26, 2009, 10:20:22 AM
Hi Neil,


So when the resistor is placed between HP and B- the circuit will make noise........Imagine that!
My bad!

The line should have read:
"A 32 Ohm (or thereabouts) HEADPHONE should be connected between HP and B- and you should be able to hear [...]"

Sorry for the miss-out  :-[
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 26, 2009, 11:00:32 AM
No problem Soeren

I thought HP ment somthing different. ;D


Take care and thanks for your help

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on September 29, 2009, 02:59:20 PM
Hello Soeren

I just wanted to send this video address so you could see the hall sensor circuit and tell me if this is acting some what like it should?

Sorry I cant get the signal off engine right now, I have to have surgery on my heart next Tuesday they found blockage so I cant play to much out side :o


take care and thanks for your help

Neil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1Vks4767KY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1Vks4767KY)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 01, 2009, 06:42:21 PM
Bump
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on October 01, 2009, 08:35:38 PM
Hi Neil,

Your link isn't working for me.

No reason to post "bump". Just post when eg. you have some data or other new info - I'll see it then and until then, there's no reason to "refresh" my mind - I'm still a couple of days from being senile ;D

I'll cross my fingers for you next Tuesday then!
I'm still on "red paint thinner" myself, recovering from a pulmonary embolism, but no surgery for that (I was about to kick the bucket though - crawling to the E.R. biting the pain the evening it happened - didn't want to be found dead the next day, as I was all by myself at an otherwise empty (for the day) wing of the hospital and I thought it was the heart giving in.
Personally, I hate drugs, but I didn't say NO to the morphine then ;)

Haven't tasted that much pain since an explosion gave me a Serious Sun Tan(tm) (A.K.A. 2nd and 3rd degree burns) from my waist to just below my eyes back in the mid-seventies.
Well, shit happens... Squeeze it and make chocolate (And enjoy the young nurses and female doctors along the way ;D)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 13, 2009, 08:50:39 PM
Hello Soeren

Hope you are well and things are good in DK?

I am feeling much better they slipped a stint in my Heart and back to bugging you ;D

Well today I went out started the engine and ran it at 1200 rpm. I tried to use the hall effect tester but no luck I couldn't hear anything as you said it maybe to loud with engine running.

I did take some reading while engine running steady.

1. With the Hall Effect tester I probed the out put stud on the distributor and only received Milli Volt readings 2mv to.04mvdc

2. Input voltage to distributor stud was same as Batt when key was on and engine was running.

3.Output stud from distributor read a steady 3.16vdc volts. Now I changed rpm up and down and the reading did not change it was also steady.

4. The Voltage reading from that same output stud set to lowest AC scale was reading 6.4vac  and it also was steady and stayed stable.

Now I don't have my standard alternator that charges my Battery hooked up so I don't know if these reading would vary if it was charging my starting battery.

Anyways Soeren I wanted to say hello and see if we can start again on this if you don't mind?

Also I ordered a B/K O scope it's Analog 20mhz I thought it would work well for a beginner.

So I'll watch to see if you care to respond. Take care and Best regards

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on October 14, 2009, 11:25:44 AM
Hi Neil,

I am feeling much better they slipped a stint in my Heart and back to bugging you ;D
Glad you're better, but ouch, it sounds like a radical way of improving things.


3.Output stud from distributor read a steady 3.16vdc volts. Now I changed rpm up and down and the reading did not change it was also steady.

4. The Voltage reading from that same output stud set to lowest AC scale was reading 6.4vac  and it also was steady and stayed stable.
Strange, I'd think the integration of the signal (when measuring DC) would still show the changes, but if even the AC signal is steady, I wonder how the signal is composed.


Now I don't have my standard alternator that charges my Battery hooked up so I don't know if these reading would vary if it was charging my starting battery.
I doubt that it would change anything, as the Hall won't change whether the motor is loaded or not.


Anyways Soeren I wanted to say hello and see if we can start again on this if you don't mind?

Also I ordered a B/K O scope it's Analog 20mhz I thought it would work well for a beginner.

So I'll watch to see if you care to respond. Take care and Best regards
Of course I'll respond :)

That scope will make it a short matter, getting a picture of the output and you won't need more than a 20MHz 'scope for this.
Actually, much less is needed for this, so now you have to really start making electronics circuits ;D

Just don't get any of the high tension from the plugs into it, as that will most likely wipe out the input amplifier.
Do you know how to operate the 'scope? (there are some tutorials on the net - Tektronix have one of the best).

Good to have you up and running again.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 14, 2009, 07:01:44 PM
Hello Soeren

Thanks for getting back with me.

Yes I think having a O scope will help very much, and I really want to see the signals and also I can attach pictures in my replies.

 I do have the 4093 chips now and the LM555, could you tell me what IC2A and IC2B is recommended are they op amps?

I will start building the circuit and as I progress I will fill you in and wait for your suggestions.

Well thats about all I have till the scope comes in, I will contact you soon.

Thanks you!
Neil

Oh I forgot to ask, The readings that I am reading on the out put post AC and DC are staying stable even though I was changing RPM's.

Am I thinking right that voltage amplitude does not have to change while signal freq increases or decreases?

Hope that wasn't a stupid question :o

Bye
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on October 15, 2009, 01:47:01 PM
Hi,

I do have the 4093 chips now and the LM555, could you tell me what IC2A and IC2B is recommended are they op amps?
Yes, it's a dual op-amp (2 single could be used as well of course).
For starters, I'd select the good old LM358.
Along the way, perhaps another type might be needed, but I think the LM358 will do.


I will start building the circuit and as I progress I will fill you in and wait for your suggestions.
Tell me if you need a PCB layout for the project.


Oh I forgot to ask, The readings that I am reading on the out put post AC and DC are staying stable even though I was changing RPM's.

Am I thinking right that voltage amplitude does not have to change while signal freq increases or decreases?

Hope that wasn't a stupid question :o
Nothing stupid about it!
There could be several scenarios where it would exhibit such behaviour. If eg. the amplitude goes down with increasing RPM, or if a capacitor of a certain size is involved, things could turn out like that.
It should be revealed as soon as you get a 'scope probe on it though, but do practice a bit on measuring on eg. a AA battery for your initial experiments, if you've never used a scope - and ask all you want about setup of the 'scope and its use if you need to.
If you post the model number of the 'scope, perhaps I can find some info or a photo of it, to better guide you.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: blackbeard on October 15, 2009, 03:45:41 PM
As I am sure you are learning, this forum can be an unfriendly place.  

Good luck with your project.  I looked at the video and pictures.  Looks interesting.  

hey you want to see unfriendly try electro-tech-online! you can't say any clever ideas there whithout being told how useless it is and how much better it is to go out and buy whatever it is you're making. everyone there seems expected to have a degree in electrical engineering lest they be flamed! no this is a pretty accommodating forum as long as you have some idea of what you're talking about
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 17, 2009, 03:13:19 PM
Hello Soren

I just wanted say Hello and if you have the PCB LAYOUTS that I could have would be great!

My oscope came today it seems to work okay so far. I tried to Calibrate it today  from a PDF manual and it seem to do well.

It is a B and K precision 20mhz scope paid $29.00 USD for it I think it will help me learn much faster and was not very expensive.

Here is a picture of it  I hope you can help me learn to use it ;D

On Monday I will be home and want to try getting the signal readying off that hall output. So what would you suggest testing first before I jump on the engine. :o

I am having fun just checking some low voltage stuff.

One question I have the ground lead on the probes are they always use when checking a signal?

Hope I can start learning more now and try to get this governor working.

Thank again for your help
Regards
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on October 19, 2009, 02:26:37 PM
Hi Neil,

[...] if you have the PCB LAYOUTS that I could have would be great!
I'll make one when we know how the input should be.


My oscope came today it seems to work okay so far. I tried to Calibrate it today  from a PDF manual and it seem to do well.
It is a B and K precision 20mhz scope paid $29.00 USD for it I think it will help me learn much faster and was not very expensive.
That's a good deal you made and yes, it will probably help you understand the theory better when you can actually see what's going on in various places in a circuit.


Here is a picture of it  I hope you can help me learn to use it ;D
That should be possible, as the photo shows quite clearly what's what.

Probably the most puzzling or misunderstood controls are:
Intensity: keep it from being too bright.
Focus: set the focus of the beam - adjust to the most precise fine line (best seen when intensity is set low).
Trigger:
- Trig Level: Adjust where you want it to fire (i.e. the vertical point where you wanna start looking at the waveform).
- Coupling: Just keep it in Auto for now.
- Source: should be on CH1 or CH2 (depending on what channel you have a signal) for now.
- Hold Off: Turn all the way CCW for now. Keep this and Level pushed in for now.


On Monday I will be home and want to try getting the signal readying off that hall output. So what would you suggest testing first before I jump on the engine. :o
Just familiarize yourself with the controls and measuring a battery.


I am having fun just checking some low voltage stuff.
That's what I meant :)


One question I have the ground lead on the probes are they always use when checking a signal?
To measure a signal you need a circuit (i.e. 2 poles) signal and ground.
For most things you can connect a separate wire to the ground socket (with a standard 4mm banana plugs) and then have an alligator clip on the other end connecting with ground of the circuit (in your case the motor block when measuring the Hall).
In these cases you can undo the ground clip on the probe (it's mounted with a spring loaded contact - just pull straight out).
When using both probes on a circuit, only connect one of them to ground, or you have the basis for a ground loop.

Don't measure in live mains circuits! If you put the ground clip on anything it will be earthed if your scope is correctly earthed and more or less live on the cabinet and all ground connections if not.

For measuring the Hall, start with a setting of 5V/div (with the probe in 1:1) set the beam to the middle line on the grid (with the switch next to the V/div on Gnd). Then put the switch in DC. and see what you get. Increase sensitivity and beam position as needed for a clear picture with a signal on-screen.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 19, 2009, 07:43:39 PM
Hello Soren

Well hear is how it went today!

I set up the Oscope to check the hall signal I used the 2v-pp calibration on the probe first.

Then after it was calibrated I set scope to a final setting of 2volts /Div and a 2mS/div.

On the scope it shows a Square wave, Voltage level of just above 4vdc and the "on part of the pulse 5mS" and the "off was 3mS"  on the 2mS/div.

After I took these measurements I increased and decreased RPM's, You could watch as signals increase and decrease to throttle responce and the Vdc stayed constant at a little over 4Vdc. My DMM was reading 3.16vdc so there is a difference between the scope and DMM reading.

So there you have it! I hope I did it right ? I think I did :-\

Soren is there any other measurements you would like me to get? I still have a copy of the pdf of the circuit and I hope you can fill in the blanks for resistor and cap's with these measurements.

Just let me know what to do next that will help! I will start putting the componets on the proto board tomorrow.

Here is a picture it was hard to capture the pulses across the entire CRT the signal was all the way across but the camera did not show it. sorry.

Take Care
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 20, 2009, 02:46:53 PM
Hello Soren
As I was building the Nand gates part of the Gov Circuit I just wonder is the 3 to 4 volts enough to power the 4093?

Just thought I would ask! I looked at the data sheet but it was a little confusing, but most say that Vdd is min 5Volts

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on October 20, 2009, 03:52:43 PM
Hi Neil,


On the scope it shows a Square wave, Voltage level of just above 4vdc and the "on part of the pulse 5mS" and the "off was 3mS"  on the 2mS/div.
Is the lower part of the trace shown at ground potential (0V) or at some "higher" voltage?
a pulse period of 8ms equates to 1875 RPM on an 8-banger. The scope cannot be read with super resolution, but for 1200 RPM, the period should be 12.5ms and such a deviation (36%) is not possible - how do you decide it's running at 1200 RPM?


After I took these measurements I increased and decreased RPM's, You could watch as signals increase and decrease to throttle responce and the Vdc stayed constant at a little over 4Vdc. My DMM was reading 3.16vdc so there is a difference between the scope and DMM reading.
But the period changed accordingly I guess?


So there you have it! I hope I did it right ? I think I did :-\
Pretty much (but keeping the camera at a right angle might produce more readable results for your next shot).


Soren is there any other measurements you would like me to get? I still have a copy of the pdf of the circuit and I hope you can fill in the blanks for resistor and cap's with these measurements.
Just tell me if the low part of the trace is at ground level.
I have allready changed a bit in the schematic, when you confirm the voltage level of the low part of the trace, I'll move on.


Just let me know what to do next that will help! I will start putting the componets on the proto board tomorrow.
That's what happen from getting a 'scope - you get itchy palms ;D
I'll check for your post tomorrow (it's [past] bedtime here) and see if I can get it ready for you with same-day-delivery :)

Congrats on your new best toy  :D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 20, 2009, 04:46:01 PM
Hi Soeren

Quote
Is the lower part of the trace shown at ground potential (0V) or at some "higher" voltage?
a pulse period of 8ms equates to 1875 RPM on an 8-banger. The scope cannot be read with super resolution, but for 1200 RPM, the period should be 12.5ms and such a deviation (36%) is not possible - how do you decide it's running at 1200 RPM?

I had forgot that I had made a distributor adjustment.............sorry on the RPM mix up :'(

Quote
But the period changed accordingly I guess?

Yes that is correct period changed and voltage stayed steady!


Quote
Just tell me if the low part of the trace is at ground level.
I have allready changed a bit in the schematic, when you confirm the voltage level of the low part of the trace, I'll move on.

It is at ground level   4.3Vdc reading

Quote
That's what happen from getting a 'scope - you get itchy palms ;D
I'll check for your post tomorrow (it's [past] bedtime here) and see if I can get it ready for you with same-day-delivery :)

Thanks Soren it is a lot more fun seeing what is happening....... ;D
and boy do I like that fast same day delivery ;D

Quote
Congrats on your new best toy  :D

Thanks again Take care and sleep well
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on October 21, 2009, 02:36:51 PM
Hi Neil,

Now that you have the numbers down, here's a suggestion... Make this:
http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Test-Generator.pdf (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Test-Generator.pdf) and you can use it for testing of the circuit along the way - it's a generator replicating the Hall signal (except for the 5:3 relationship which doesn't matter here, as you just need a periodic transition either low->high or v.v.) and it will save you from having to start the engine for each test. And you can use it where you build the circuit and won't bother anyone if you choose to test the circuit late at night.

That way you can build to the circuit in "modules" on a breadboard first (and get any errors tweaked out), understand each part of it while you go along and get some practice with your 'scope.

I'll go on with the governor circuit proper now.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 21, 2009, 03:39:05 PM
Hi Soren

Quote
It will save you from having to start the engine for each test. And you can use it where you build the circuit and won't bother anyone if you choose to test the circuit late at night.

Your right the guy next door hates when I fire it at 3:00 AM, so this circuit will help ;D ;) :o
  

Quote
That way you can build to the circuit in "modules" on a breadboard first (and get any errors tweaked out), understand each part of it while you go along and get some practice with your 'scope.

I think thats a good idea and keeps the bugs down to a smaller location ;D

Good Luck with finishing the circuit and just to let you know it's starting to get fun playing with the goodies :D
 
Also I wanted to ask what is J1 in the circuit you just sent is it a Jumper or ?...........Had to ask just wasnt sure  ::)

Take care
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on October 22, 2009, 03:43:11 PM
Hi Neil,

Your right the guy next door hates when I fire it at 3:00 AM, so this circuit will help ;D ;) :o
Yeah, some people are strange that way ;D  


I think thats a good idea and keeps the bugs down to a smaller location ;D
Exactly!
Here's the first "installment" http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Speed_Governor-input_module.pdf (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Speed_Governor-input_module.pdf)
Mind you, a part of it is experimental. I got the idea of integrating the signal in a gyrator circuit to keep it as simple and easy for you to understand. It's untried, so it might be less than optimal, but I think it's a good exercise for you to go through it - I do think it will work as planned, I just haven't tested it.

Try to see if you can understand what each block does (I didn't divide up the blocks though) and we'll take it from there - perhaps a block diagram will make it easier to comprehend, or perhaps some other measures, but look it over and tell me what you think you need.

 
Also I wanted to ask what is J1 in the circuit you just sent is it a Jumper or ?...........Had to ask just wasnt sure  ::)
Yes, "J" is a jumper. I try to avoid them, but I'd rather use a few than go to a double sided PCB-layout (I only add them after the board routing tells me it's a good idea :))

The first schematic is to be considered dead. The schematic in this post is experimental and we probably need a bit back and forth to get it to the final version.

When this is done, we take on the rest.

Remember to post any measurements you make, so that I can correct along the way if needs be.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 22, 2009, 07:49:12 PM
Thanks Soren

Now I have to get some parts ;D it may take a couple days  supplier that I was dealing with stopped carrying lots of  stuff

and radio shack has very little. I guess I will have to   deal with the digi-key company. but I have to wait for shipping >:(

I get back with you soon!

Also I have noticed my Vertical trace line is showing very weak and I almost cant see the full wave form :( I guess thats what I paid for? Even when I focus and increase the intensity >:(

Take care Soeren

Regards
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on October 23, 2009, 07:55:51 AM
Hi Neil,

Now I have to get some parts ;D it may take a couple days  supplier that I was dealing with stopped carrying lots of  stuff

and radio shack has very little. I guess I will have to   deal with the digi-key company. but I have to wait for shipping >:(
Oh. For the BC547, almost any small signal NPN will do and for the other components, near values will probably be close enough and will at least give a close approximation.


Also I have noticed my Vertical trace line is showing very weak and I almost cant see the full wave form :( I guess thats what I paid for? Even when I focus and increase the intensity >:(
When you're looking at a square edge, it should have a fast risetime and that will move the electron beam faster over the phosphor coated screen and as such gives very little glow. On a quality scope and with a "really square" square, you shouldn't see any vertical lines at all, just the horizontal segments :)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 23, 2009, 08:21:34 AM
Thanks Soeren

That is what happened when I built the signal generator The square signal on the rise and fall cant be seen at certain freq's

I can see it all right on the calibration signal but that is only 1hz cycle when I jumped up to 75hz I could not see the rise and fall of the wave.

All I can do is work with what I have, I am thankful I have a oscope at all ;D

Thanks again for helping me understand why things look as they do!

Have a great day!

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on October 23, 2009, 02:45:16 PM
Hi Neil,

All I can do is work with what I have, I am thankful I have a oscope at all ;D
As I said, it sounds fine to me.
Here's a picture illustrating that the "problem" (read: normal behaviour) is only on the vertical transitions.
Where the trace is close to vertical, the trace seems to disappear, but as soon as there's even a small slant, it's quite visible (still burning brightly where the trace doesn't move vertically over a unit of time.
(http://www.susan-parker.co.uk/zeus-se-unpowered-signal-feedthru-scope-image-1-600.jpg)
This is as it is, since in any given time, the electron beam outputs a certain amount of "light" and if you spread that out over a large area (by the vertical deflection circuit, in response to a change in input voltage), there is less light at any given spot - a bit like a rubber band getting thinner when you stretch it.

Another pic showing a square - with a bit of high frequency dampening, whether it's from the scope being bad or misaligned, or it's the square being measured that's bad, or perhaps it's measured with a loose piece of coax or worse.
(http://pcbunn.cithep.caltech.edu/jjb/Tektronix/310A/310a_trace.jpg)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 23, 2009, 06:28:08 PM
Thanks for the Pictures Soren

The Bottom picture is what's happening no matter how I try I cannot get that rise and fall trace on a square wave above a few Hz.

But as I built the circuit just playing with that adjustable freq circuit, I got a saw tooth type form when I was putting different caps and R's and could see the entire wave form but if it is a fast and square on  and off no good for me! >:(

By chance is there a internal adjust for that  :o? I think I just better stay with the gov circuit for now...........Ya think? ;D

Ill keep working and if I have too at some point I'll Buy a better scope.  But I really think it's just that I am new to it all, we will see!

But for now Ill keep working and when I get a chance Ill send a couple pictures. And without your help and answers like these I would already be lost :o

Thanks

Neil

Picture is of 2v//div and 1mS/div =1hz It must be the operator!!!!! ;D ::) :P :'( ;)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on October 24, 2009, 12:33:43 AM
Hi Neil,


The Bottom picture is what's happening no matter how I try I cannot get that rise and fall trace on a square wave above a few Hz.
You're not really listening - the scope is fine and should be like that (the electron beam is moving so fast from low to high that the phosphor coating doesn't get any exitation, hence almost no vertical lines).
There's no real need to see vertical lines either, as you know where it starts and ends. You'll get used to reading the 'scope in a glance, without even thinking about it.


By chance is there a internal adjust for that  :o?
That would be your personal focus adjustment ;D


Ill keep working and if I have too at some point I'll Buy a better scope.  But I really think it's just that I am new to it all, we will see!
Keep the 'scope, any other will look the same.


Picture is of 2v//div and 1mS/div =1hz It must be the operator!!!!! ;D ::) :P :'( ;)
If it's set at 1ms/div the waveform is 1/0.001s = 1kHz  (which is quite normal for the probe calibrator signal).
Once again, it looks perfect to me.

Go to:
http://www.tek.com/Measurement/App_Notes/XYZs/ (http://www.tek.com/Measurement/App_Notes/XYZs/)

And download the pdf (the Tektronix XYZ of Oscilloscopes):
http://www.tek.com/cgi-bin/rfbypass.cgi?link=http://www2.tek.com/cmswpt/tidownload.lotr?ct=TI&cs=pri&ci=2280&lc=EN (http://www.tek.com/cgi-bin/rfbypass.cgi?link=http://www2.tek.com/cmswpt/tidownload.lotr?ct=TI&cs=pri&ci=2280&lc=EN)

It's a tutorial for using a 'scope and it's quite good.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 24, 2009, 03:41:17 PM
Hi Soeren

Just finished the circuit and heading to testing soon.

It's a shame it's raining and I cant get to the engine............... :'(

well I will try and play with the freq circuit and see what happens :o

Here is a picture of it, you might be able to see if I screwed something up.................... ;D

Winter is moving in and weather is changing a lot. It only going to get to 25.5 Celsius I'll be frozen if it falls much more.............. :P

I bet your winters are pretty cold in DK?

Once in a great while it will make it to 0 Celsius down here but not to often.

Well take care and testing reports coming soon!

Best regards

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on October 25, 2009, 04:31:17 PM
Hi Neil,


It's a shame it's raining and I cant get to the engine............... :'(

well I will try and play with the freq circuit and see what happens :o
That was the idea with the test generator - replicating the Hall signal so that you won't have to start the engine all the time.
How does the test generator work, is the output approximately as the Hall signal?


Here is a picture of it, you might be able to see if I screwed something up.................... ;D
White wires on a white board, and several of them I cannot really see whether they're in a hole or not - are you kidding ;D
You might wanna use an Ohm-meter to check if there's connection according to the schematic.

The pic does reveal a certain thing however, you are a bit rough on the contacts in your board, several of them are damaged.  Either you push down too thick wires or you hit them at an angle which gets the two contact points to sway to the same side and get deformed in the process.
If you feel brave, it cen be dismantled from the back and the contacts can then be bend back into shape - but only if you feel really brave, as you can destroy the entire board that way.

Did you get an output with the test genny as input?


Winter is moving in and weather is changing a lot. It only going to get to 25.5 Celsius I'll be frozen if it falls much more.............. :P

I bet your winters are pretty cold in DK?

Once in a great while it will make it to 0 Celsius down here but not to often.
Oh, poor you ;)
Right now it's 9°C outside, but we have had a few nights of 0°C allready and in the winter, -10°C is not uncommon, -20°C or lower is possible, but luckily not too common (add Wind Chill Factor and you'll understand why we use plenty of warm clothes in the winter - perhaps except my youngest son, whom we just visited today, he's still wearing shorts outside  :o)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 26, 2009, 10:38:13 PM
Hello Soren
Sorry for the delay, I was playing with th genny circuit, and I was getting all kinds of really strange wave on the scope. I started to be suspicious of may variable power supply and sure enough I went to a battery little 7.5 voltand there was a square wave and as I moved the var pot you could see the freq increase and decrease.

That made me much happier ;D

Here is something I  have to ask a question I bought a mixed bag of ceramic disc caps but not sure how they are rated some have 3 numbers and some only 2 . If I understand right the first 2 number are significant and the 3rd is a multiplier.........Right?

Anyways if you could tell Me how these are rated it would be a big help. uF-nF-pF


Here are a couple picture First one is of the Cap's and second one is the signal from the gen signal circuit.

Buy the way the scope was set at 5Vdc/div and .2mS/div. Also I could only get a 5.1 volt Zener and I know you were trying to get the wave to look as close to the Hall Effect signal. sorry but that was all that I could get. But it looked good to me ,

but I still am having a bit of a time grasping conversion from mS to hz. I know there are 1000 millisec in a second and 1Hz is a second.
 so why am I confused...........Idont know Duh :o

I don't know what the vari 100k was set at and not sure of cap value. I hate when I don't know if the parts are right :'(

I will be tryin it on the real engine tomorrow. :D ;D

Take care and I will have more input for you soon.
Thanks and have a great day!
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 27, 2009, 04:58:11 PM
Hi Soren
Well I went out and started testing today but didnt get far. The signals from the Hall signal was fine, but when I went to TP1 it gave me a square wave with a on threshold at 12Vdc but the off threshold was about 10Vdc it never went to 0Vdc it was like the signal was floating above ground. I have sent a drawing that I hope you see what I am saying.

Anyways I thought I had something wrong in the circuit and I checked and couldnt find it so I stopped and wanted to ask what you think it's doing.

Take care
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on October 27, 2009, 07:06:48 PM
Hi Neil,

Here is something I  have to ask a question I bought a mixed bag of ceramic disc caps but not sure how they are rated some have 3 numbers and some only 2 . If I understand right the first 2 number are significant and the 3rd is a multiplier.........Right?

Anyways if you could tell Me how these are rated it would be a big help. uF-nF-pF
The kind of ceramic caps shown in your pic are usually marked in pF (pico-Farad) and with 3 digits - the first two digits should be read literal and the third digit is the "multiplier" (number of zeroes).
I can only read the middle one in the pic marked "151", that should make it 150 pF (since the last digit "1" means add 1 zero after the first two digits "15".
If you had one marked "123", it would be 12000 pF = 12 nF.

You might run into some which are marked like "2.2 n" which is pretty easy, namely 2.2 nF.
When you buy a large grab bag of mixed caps, you may be so unlucky that some are marked with a seemingly strange in-house codes (It does make sense to the company that ordered and paid extra to get them marked that way of course).

Ceramic caps of the type in question are in the range a few pF to a few nF.

It's not hard to make a little tester, that will enable you to determine their value.


Buy the way the scope was set at 5Vdc/div and .2mS/div. Also I could only get a 5.1 volt Zener and I know you were trying to get the wave to look as close to the Hall Effect signal. sorry but that was all that I could get. But it looked good to me ,

but I still am having a bit of a time grasping conversion from mS to hz. I know there are 1000 millisec in a second and 1Hz is a second.
 so why am I confused...........Idont know Duh :o

I don't know what the vari 100k was set at and not sure of cap value. I hate when I don't know if the parts are right :'(
The period of the signal is: 8/7*200µs = 228.6µs = 4,375 Hz
How did I reach that number?
The timebase is 0.2ms (=200µs) per division and you have 8 full periods in 7 divisions.
7*200µs = 1400µs and that holds 8 full periods, so should be diveded with 8.

It seems that one of the time-keeping components are wrong by 50 times.

Time to frequency and v.v. is easy, just take the reciprocal value: 1/frequency = time and 1/time = frequency.

Using a 5.1V zener is OK.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on October 27, 2009, 07:18:12 PM
Hi Neil,

Anyways I thought I had something wrong in the circuit and I checked and couldnt find it so I stopped and wanted to ask what you think it's doing.
If you take the input (left side of R1, the 1M resistor) directly to B+ (12V)  -  NOT while the input is connected to the Hall or the tester! - what is the voltage at TP1 then?  (Just measure with your DMM).
If it is less than 1V, R1 probably needs to be reduced to eg. 220k to 470k (and that would indicate a transistor with less gain than a fully functional BC547 - what transistor did you use? Make sure it's connected up correctly).
If not, please post the actual value you get.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 28, 2009, 07:55:33 AM
Hi Soren
I just wanted to tell you I will be out of town today and I dont have access to the circuits I will send the reading to you tomorrow, But I think I found what was wrong.

Take care Soren

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 29, 2009, 02:22:19 PM
Hello Soren
Well here is today's adventure at Neil's House...;D

First off I checked left of R1 and only B+ was connected and ground-----Reading was only 2-3 mv.
 
Then I changed R1 with a 220k and then reading was 0.70Vdc.

Here are all the readings starting at B+ to TP2 with only B+ power attached.

B+ = 12.40Vdc

Tp1= 5.15vdc

Left of R1 or signal input = 0.70vdc

TP2 = 4.46vdc

The Transistor I am using is a 2n3904---- http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/fairchild/2N3904.pdf (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/fairchild/2N3904.pdf)

I also tried a couple other npn 's from the same packet with no change. And the emitter is hooked to ground in all cases

Also I am sending a picture of the part of the circuit I know is wired correct it has been checked alot.......  :o

All picture of voltage readings are the circuit with only B+ and Ground connected.


Soren I hope this helps you to see what I am seeing and getting here. I am trying to make sure everything is correct so you are not wasting your time or effort. I have tried several times to get good pictures of the scope signal but I think the RPM's change a little during the picture and the camera can't get the full signal. the wave on  the screen is hard to freeze in place . >:(

So this is all I have for now and I hope it helps.
Many Thanks
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on October 29, 2009, 05:02:29 PM
Hi Neil,


I wrote something wrong: "If it is less than 1V..." should have read "If it's less than 1V below B+ (i.e. more than ~11V ref. to GND)..."


First off I checked left of R1 and only B+ was connected-------Reading was only 2-3 mv.
Not to assume any silliness, just to make sure we are speaking of the same things: Was the negative side of the battery connected to GND?


B+ = 12.40Vdc
Left of R1 or signal input = 0.70vdc
I asked you to connect the input to B+, but with that result, the left part of R1 cannot be connected to B+ then!


The Transistor I am using is a 2n3904---- http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/fairchild/2N3904.pdf (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/fairchild/2N3904.pdf)
OK, I have changed the transistor in the following.
I hope it'll work OK with its low current gain of around 50 times at the currents involved.


Also I am sending a picture of the part of the circuit I know is wired correct it has been checked alot.......  :o
You beat me to suggesting that we build it up from the left side and add to it only when this works as it should :)


Soren I hope this helps you to see what I am seeing and getting here. I am trying to make sure everything is correct so you are not wasting your time or effort. I have tried several times to get good pictures of the scope signal but I think the RPM's change a little during the picture and the camera can't get the full signal. the wave on  the screen is hard to freeze in place . >:(
I have a pretty good idea assuming you made the measurements as I asked you to, but until I'm sure of that...

Here's what you need to do. Connect the parts exactly as shown here: http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Speed_Governor_Left_Side.pdf (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Speed_Governor_Left_Side.pdf)
Make the measurements exactly as described in the pdf-file and tell me what they were - I have written what they should be, but tell me what they are, whether or not they correlate with what I've written.
When I have your answer, I should be able to tell you what needs correcting.

I have made an alternative "right side" of the circuit that will teach you a bit more, as it breaks each function up in blocks that are easier to understand as they each do only one thing. I won't post it until we have negotiated this first hurdle though, as that might just take focus from what needs to be solved first.

When we're there, I'll let you decide which you'd rather make - the one with a 555 will be a bit more compact, the alternative will teach you quite a bit and you will be able to troubleshoot it much easier than the 555 when you truly understand what blocks goes into the circuit where.

But first... let's find out whether the transistor is shot (I'm afraid the cap is based on the TP2 reading).
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 29, 2009, 07:03:04 PM
Soren Here are the results.

B+= 12.04

Input = With 11.02v  Without 0v

TP1 = With .02 Without 11.08 the ".02 is not a misprint it was .02 your diagram said .2 to .3"

TP2 = With 10.06v Without 11.3v

Also the 220k R1 gets very hot when the wire input wire was hooked up with B+.

I think my meter is loading the circuit?

Also I disconnected this part of the circuit from the 4093 so this part is isolated. The only connections are B+ and ground and the circuit it reassembled to diagram exactly ;D

I really hope it helps

I know its late there have a good night ;)
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 30, 2009, 07:57:05 AM
Hello Soren

Well I am going to ask you a question about the left side of this circuit. Please don't laugh if I am wrong I am just trying to learn ::)

Is this part of the circuit acting as a switch for a on off signal and then using decoupling capacitor to reduce the noise to the 4093?

 ;D
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on October 30, 2009, 11:56:08 PM
Hi Neil,

B+= 12.04

Input = With 11.02v  Without 0v
The two ends of a wire should be at the same voltage (B+ and Input with a wire connected).
IS B+=12.04 when you measure 11.02V at the input?
(You could measure the V_drop of the wire by putting the black lead on the input and the red lead on B+).


TP1 = With .02 Without 11.08 the ".02 is not a misprint it was .02 your diagram said .2 to .3"
The 0.2V to 0.3V is from the datasheet of the transistor (the Vce_sat), so either the transistor is terminally ill, or something is connected wrong, perhaps shorted?


TP2 = With 10.06v Without 11.3v
Strange, without the wire connected, it should be close to B+ (within ~1%)


Also the 220k R1 gets very hot when the wire input wire was hooked up with B+.
Assuming the right side of this R1 was at ground potential, the max current/power is 55µA/660µW, so I think you have a much smaller resistor. 220k is red-red-yellow.


I think my meter is loading the circuit?
I started to think the same, but then I found the datasheet for the meter and the input impedance should be 9MOhm, so unless the meter is broken, loading should not be an issue.

for a quick test, measure your B+ directly and through a 1MOhm resistor.
The voltage should be B+ without the resistor and B+ x 9/10 with it.
For 12.04V, the "resisted" measurement should then be 10.8V.
If your meter is broken (in regards to input impedance), this value will be much lower.


Also I disconnected this part of the circuit from the 4093 so this part is isolated. The only connections are B+ and ground and the circuit it reassembled to diagram exactly ;D
Super, that's what I wanted you to do, but I guess I wasn't clear on that.


I really hope it helps
I don't like the different voltages on the same piece of wire?
Either Q1 or/and C1 appears to be dud.
Q1 should be closed and the emitter high impedance without the wire, so should appear to not be there, meaning that you should get the full B+ at TP1 without the wire.
With the wire it should appear as if the emitter is actually ground (the Vce_sat is small enough to not influence the measurements that much).

Please _measure_ the value of R1, if it gets hot, it isn't 220k.
For a 0.25w resistor to get "very hot", at least 0.2W (or something like that) should go through it. So my best guess is that you have used 220 Ohm rather than 220 kOhm?

If you remove C1 completely from the circuit and redo the measurements (yes, only a resistor to TP2), what measurements do you get then?
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on October 31, 2009, 03:39:23 PM
Hello Soren
 I will be away till Monday Night as soon as I can I will reset the whole set up and start from scratch with new parts and see if we have better results.

I will report as soon as I get it done.

Sorry it is being a pain :'(

Have a good weekend, I don't know if you have Halloween in the DK But tonight is a Holiday for us. So Happy Halloween! :o


Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on October 31, 2009, 11:42:15 PM
Hi Neil,

Is this part of the circuit acting as a switch for a on off signal and then using decoupling capacitor to reduce the noise to the 4093?
Missed this post yesterday.
The transistor and surrounding components are doing several jobs here, which are:
  Reducing the load on the Hall, to make sure the circuit won't interfere with the Halls main function (controlling ignition timing)
  Acting as a level translator from 0..4V to 0..12V
  Differentiating the signal to just give a single short needle-like pulse for the monoflop following it.

Its way past bedtime here, just woke up in front of the PC with a sore back so I better catch the rest of my Zs in a horizontal position, but if I forget it, please remind me to make a detailed block diagram, as that will probably make it easier to understand the function of each part.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 01, 2009, 12:06:42 AM
Hi Neil,


Sorry it is being a pain :'(
It ain't, at least not for me and for you, it just means victory will be even sweeter ;D


Have a good weekend, I don't know if you have Halloween in the DK But tonight is a Holiday for us. So Happy Halloween! :o
Yes, we have had Halloween for a few years now, even though it's not that different from a traditional feast held in February called "Fastelavn", although the background for them are different, the commercial side of the event is the same... Rip the consumer ;D
Fastelavn is an old tradition http://members.tripod.com/LINK_Settlers/fastelavn.htm (http://members.tripod.com/LINK_Settlers/fastelavn.htm)

We seem to import any commercial "holiday/event" form the U.S. this last decade, Halloween, Valentines Day and I have a sneaky feeling that Thanksgiving, which have been a slight murmur for the past few years will explode in a couple of years time - we seem to get anything that the shops can cash in on and well, the kids love Halloween of course and the girls of all ages love Valentines Day (My GF in particular  ::)).
Personally, I'm not too fond of turkey, so I still wonder when there will be something for us boys - you wouldn't happen to have a Whiskey Day? (Oh well, I can allways swap the Jack'O'Lantern for a Jack D of course ;D).

Cheers, and a late Happy Halloween.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 03, 2009, 06:19:33 PM
Hi Soren

Thanks for the incouraging words! I am trying everything to make it work but it just seems to haunt me, oh yes Halloween is over ;D

Okay here is todays Governor up dates.

I checked all resistors ohms and replaced Q1 and C1. You were right about the R1 it was a 1/4 watt and very small it had a orange 3rd band very hard to see sometimes. :P So I got RED RED YELLOW it cooled things down a bit ;D

Now after checking and rewiring everything here is the reading With and Without the in wire to B+.

B+=12.23 Vdc

in= w/12.23--------wo/0volts


TP1 = W/.02 to .03-------------Wo/ =11.92
.

TP2=  W/11.13------Wo/11.13

I also tried a different npn and tested a mps2222a but TP1 only changed to .04Vdc.

Just so you know I measured the emitter base voltage it was .58 and the base to collector was .54 and Collector to emitter.02volts.\  with the in wire hooked to B+

So I am at a loss for words, I have no idea why these readings are coming out so different than what they should be. I even brought a 12 volt car battery into my desk to make sure that is was not my power supply acting up.

I sure hope you can see what is going wrong I don't have a clue.

I am sending a few pictures Not that they will help but at least you can see I am trying ;D

Take care
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 04, 2009, 02:11:24 AM
Hi Neil,

I checked all resistors ohms and replaced Q1 and C1. You were right about the R1 it was a 1/4 watt and very small it had a orange 3rd band very hard to see sometimes. :P So I got RED RED YELLOW it cooled things down a bit ;D
That doesn't really explain why it got hot, as a 22k will only dissipate (12^2 / 22000 =) 6.5mW
If it was a very small resistor, it might have been an 1/16W type, but that will handle almost 10 times as much (62.5mW).
As the heating problem is solved, I think we should just forget about what was wrong and move on though.


Now after checking and rewiring everything here is the reading With and Without the in wire to B+.
[...]
Just so you know I measured the emitter base voltage it was .58 and the base to collector was .54 and Collector to emitter.02volts.\  with the in wire hooked to B+

So I am at a loss for words, I have no idea why these readings are coming out so different than what they should be. I even brought a 12 volt car battery into my desk to make sure that is was not my power supply acting up.

I sure hope you can see what is going wrong I don't have a clue.
Except for the very low V_ce_sat of the transistor everything checks out as I estimated. (I don't know if you're aware of it, but using the tilde char "~" in front of a number means "about" or "close to" and about the TP2 voltage:
It should have been ~12.1V if you measured with your meter at one of the ranges which has got a 9MOhm input impedance, but the 11.13V is a 100% correct measure for a meter with a 1MOhm input impedance.
The datasheet I found on your meter says 9MOhm on the voltage ranges, but doing the numbers, I'm sure your meter is 1MOhm on the voltage range, so I consider the readings OK.

The low V_ce_sat is not a problem at all, now that you verified that the transistor is actually that low (it's loaded very lightly and it must be a good choice for low V_ce_sat on light loads), I was just surprised it was.

So... First part accomplished to an A+  now pad yourself on the shoulder :)

Now it's time to connect the test generator to the input (both signal and ground) and 'scope the input, TP1 and TP2 and compare to the curves shown in the file "Speed_Governor-input_module.pdf".

I'm expecting a post of "It Works" anytime soon now ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 04, 2009, 08:10:49 AM
Hi Soren
I hope a picture is worth a thousand words here are pictures of the" test signal circuit output" to the "input of the left part gov circuit".

Can you actualy understand what I said in the last sentence.............. ::) I cant and I wrote it....lol

All pictures are from the same freq setting output signal.

If you are unable to see settings they were in all pictures 5v/div and 50us/div.

If you could explain why the TP2 signal jumped up on the vertical divsions and changing where ground is?

Thanks Much!
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 04, 2009, 10:00:50 PM
Hi Neil,

I hope a picture is worth a thousand words here are pictures of the" test signal circuit output" to the "input of the left part gov circuit".

Can you actualy understand what I said in the last sentence.............. ::) I cant and I wrote it....lol
When coupled with my previous knowledge of the subject I can decipher it ;)


If you are unable to see settings they were in all pictures 5v/div and 50us/div.

If you could explain why the TP2 signal jumped up on the vertical divsions and changing where ground is?
Well, I thought you changed the test generator, but I guess I didn't ask you to... Until now that is.
Please try changing C1 in the tester from 22nF to say 2.2µF to 4.7µF to get the frequency down to a realistic frequency (should be around the 80Hz mark with VR1 somewhere in the middle third of its travel).

When you're down to 80Hz, try measuring TP2 once more.

The reason for the lifted ground is that C1 works like a pump. When the transistor is open, C1  is charged a bit via R4 (positive side) and the transistor (negative side). R4 and C1 will work as a voltage divider to AC.

When the transistor is closed, The left side of C1 (ground side before) is connected to B+ through R3, the right side is still connected through R4 and C1 has still got some voltage difference on it.

Try correcting the test frequency signal first, then let's see.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 05, 2009, 04:57:16 PM
Hi Soren

I am sorry I didn't correct that circuit :(. I  :(slowed it down a bit today ;D

I had fun switch caps in and out and series and para to see the changes. I also tried to get the freq as close to 60Hz as I could, hope that was okay?

Let me ask if this is correct!  3.2/divisions*5mS/div= 0.016 then recip 1/0.016=62.5Hz.

Hope that is right? If not clear me up will you ;D

Here are the pictures and all of them were taken with scope set to 5v/div and 5mS/div.

Hope this works better than yesterday.

Take care

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 05, 2009, 06:56:55 PM
Hi Neil,

Let me ask if this is correct!  3.2/divisions*5mS/div= 0.016 then recip 1/0.016=62.5Hz.

Hope that is right? If not clear me up will you ;D
Yes, that's correct.


Here are the pictures and all of them were taken with scope set to 5v/div and 5mS/div.

Hope this works better than yesterday.
It does... Enough to see that I have been a bit sleepy when I made it  :(

In the TP2 pic, I assume the vertical midpoint (line rather) is close to 12V (I don't know where your ground line is) and the positive peak is some 10V above (i.e. around 20..22V)??

This peak needs to be removed by a diode (any will do) in parallel with R4 (100k), with the cathode (the bar) pointing up to B+ and the anode towards TP2.
That will quench the part of the peak going higher than 0.65V above B+

Please post a pic of TP2 with the diode mounted.

If you allways keep the ground line (on the 'scope) at the middle line, the one with subdivisions, it's easy to compare pictures.


Well, off to sleep now - have to go to a celebration on the Australian Embassy tomorrow, followed by dinner at a Michelin star restaurant (Hard work, but someone has to do it) ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 05, 2009, 08:10:00 PM
Goodday Mr Soren


Quote
This peak needs to be removed by a diode (any will do) in parallel with R4 (100k), with the cathode (the bar) pointing up to B+ and the anode towards TP2.
That will quench the part of the peak going higher than 0.65V above B+

It is Done and it clipped almost all of the peak.



Quote
If you allways keep the ground line (on the 'scope) at the middle line, the one with subdivisions, it's easy to compare pictures.

Soren 0v ground is at middle grid line. "From now on" ;)


Quote
Well, off to sleep now - have to go to a celebration on the Australian Embassy tomorrow, followed by dinner at a Michelin star restaurant (Hard work, but someone has to do it) ;D

I'm Having sympathy pains for you as I type. ::)

No political asylum needed :o

There is not very many people trying to escape DK ;D

Hey sounds like your going to have a very nice time, enjoy sir enjoy!!! ;D

Jealous :'(
Neil

I was just experimenting after adding the diode you told me to add and added another diode in series with the cap and 100k r4 cath is facing C1  and it cleaned the top portion of the signal. I don't know if that is good or bad ? If bad I'll just take it out. :-\

Picture 1 signal with diode added that you requested.

Picture 2 signal with both diodes added  :-\
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 07, 2009, 07:28:25 AM
Hey Soren

Well did you have a good time on your little adventure to the Embassy/
Hope so it sounds like it would have been a Great time.

Just wanted to show you a picture of the woodgas refinery that your circuit will control the out going gas from the reactor.
It runs on wood chips from tree trimmers and small chunk wood. And burns cleaner than most autos, very low CO emissions.
Clean Energy is what they call it............ ::) Actually during WWII these were developed in Europe to run vehicles and farming equipment on coal as petrol supplies were being cut off by Germany. Old tech being brought back because of petrol prices.

Anyways here is a picture of a test run to get temperature levels across the system, if you look close you can see the flame it is a hydrogen methane mixture. and will run any internal gas combustion engine. The flame is about .5 meters long if you look next to the ladder you can see a faint tips of the flare.

Well just wanted you to see part of the end project, and with your help the governor will control throttle for this gas mixture.

Take care

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 07, 2009, 12:34:24 PM
Hi Neil,

It is Done and it clipped almost all of the peak.
Super - just what it should be like ;D


Soren 0v ground is at middle grid line. "From now on" ;)
Great :)


I'm Having sympathy pains for you as I type. ::)
Thanks, that helps  :P


There is not very many people trying to escape DK ;D
Last one was found in Spain living as a beggar only a few days ago (reason he ran probably has to do with the woman he butchered though). Usually it's the large corporations that runs - to avoid the taxes - except for the really large corps. that just tells the tax office that they'll go if they have to pay tax and if they employ enough people, they get away with it  >:(


Hey sounds like your going to have a very nice time, enjoy sir enjoy!!! ;D

Jealous :'(
You shouldn't be, the pink bubbly was at least 3°C too cold ;D


I was just experimenting after adding the diode you told me to add and added another diode in series with the cap and 100k r4 cath is facing C1  and it cleaned the top portion of the signal. I don't know if that is good or bad ? If bad I'll just take it out. :-\
It's great that you experiment, as it is the fastest way to learn and you certainly got a nice waveform out of it. However... We don't want nice, we want functional and the extra diode makes it not go low enough for triggering the 4093.
The 4093 has got Schmitt trigger inputs, so no need for cleaning up the waveform any further than the first diode.
A revised schematic is found here: http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Speed_Governor_Left_Side_v1,1.pdf (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Speed_Governor_Left_Side_v1,1.pdf)
I'm not really sure where you placed the extra diode?

Sounds like you're ready for the next installment?
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 07, 2009, 12:42:07 PM
Hi Neil,

Well did you have a good time on your little adventure to the Embassy/
Hope so it sounds like it would have been a Great time.
I survived... I managed to avoid the garlic loaded snacks (but not the people breathing them) and met some people that I have known for years over the telephone but haven't previously seen live - all in all, it was... Bearable, I guess.


It runs on wood chips from tree trimmers and small chunk wood. And burns cleaner than most autos, very low CO emissions.
Nice... So you're gonna run your car on firewood, so to speak?  :D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 08, 2009, 04:38:46 PM
Hi Neil,

Here's the schematic with the next two sub-circuits attached:
http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/V8-Speed_Governor_Next_Step.pdf (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/V8-Speed_Governor_Next_Step.pdf)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 09, 2009, 07:21:12 PM
Thanks Soren for sending more of the circuit.

I will report back as soon as I get some results. I'll slip that 4093 in tonight.

Thank you Sir ;)

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 09, 2009, 08:34:00 PM
Hello Mr. Soren

Just a quick question, if the TP3 does not look right should I stop, or continue the circuit? As of now with only the 4093 has been added.

You can see the wave form below.


Sorry for dark picture
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 10, 2009, 04:38:55 AM
Hi Neil,

Just a quick question, if the TP3 does not look right should I stop, or continue the circuit? As of now with only the 4093 has been added.
You should allways stop when something is that different, or the error will propagate throughout the rest of the circuit and make it tougher to trouble shoot.

With only the 4093 (plus C2, R5 and VR1 I hope), TP3 should look as stated - a nice clean square.
Please check pins 3 and 4 on the 4093 (and perhaps pin 1). The curve looks somewhat like if your 'scope was AC coupled, but the switch seem to be DC coupled, so perhaps the 4093 is failing, but do these measurements so we can rule on it.

How does TP2 look when TP3 does this?
If you hook up one of the probes to each, and just move the traces apart vertically (eg. upper half for TP2 and lower half for TP3), we can see the signals timing dependencies as well.
As a matter of fact, keeping one of the probes on TP2, will serve as a timing reference for all other measurements you do.

The positive going peaks on TP3 should be concurrent with the negative going spikes on TP2 and the timing of the monoflop seems to be around 9ms, as I suppose the negative going peaks happens when the monoflop times out.

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 10, 2009, 11:10:03 AM
Soren
I think we made some progress today.

Here are the Pictures of TP3 and TP4 It seemed that TP3 was close so I added a little more to get the TP4 signal out.

Anyways  here are the pictures and I will wait for my electronics thrashing ;D

Take Care Mr Soren

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 10, 2009, 04:11:30 PM
Hi Neil,


Here are the Pictures of TP3 and TP4 It seemed that TP3 was close so I added a little more to get the TP4 signal out.
I don't think TP3 is all that close unfortunately.
The instant TP2 reach 5V (+/- ~1V) on its way down towards 0V, TP3 should go high.
The period TP3 is high should be settable on VR1, to about half the period (at least if the test generator is adjusted to 80Hz/12.5ms - which will make it easier later on). Set it as close to 50% as possible (just by eye).

As long as this is not the case, you should wait with the components right of TP3.


When you go right of TP3, you really need to adjust the test generator period to 12.5ms, as this is the center value we need to integrate (make into a DC voltage).


If you have an extra 4093, try swapping it in, to see if that changes anything.

Btw. I don't know if you are aware of it, but CMOS4000 series are sensitive to Electrostatic Discharge (ESD), so you should touch the ground of your circuit before putting the 4093 in, to discharge any potential difference - fairly high voltages (low current though) are common and can damage the IC.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 10, 2009, 07:35:43 PM
Hi Soren

Sorry it was not what you were looking for :(

Quote
The period TP3 is high should be settable on VR1, to about half the period (at least if the test generator is adjusted to 80Hz/12.5ms - which will make it easier later on). Set it as close to 50% as possible (just by eye).

I reset the test gen circuit to as close to 80Hz as possible. Just so you know VR1 gave me no adjustment control, If it did it was so little I could barely detect it and no way could I decrease the high by half. R5=~65k, I checked VR1 it had full range but still no control over the circuit. I swapped out C2 also.

I also switched the 4093 out with 2 others and no change. And as you said I always try to ground myself before touching IC's Just good practice I think ;)

Quote
As long as this is not the case, you should wait with the components right of TP3.

There already gone!

Quote
When you go right of TP3, you really need to adjust the test generator period to 12.5ms, as this is the center value we need to integrate (make into a DC voltage).

I'll Keep a close check on it.

Okay Here is something, when I removed the dual trace signal from the scope and dropped the TP2 it changed the freq of TP3's "HIGH" by about half.
You can see it in the last picture .  It looks like that wave is pretty close to 80Hz. The scope was set at 5v/div and 5mS/div Hope it helps, that you know this info? :-\

Is the last picture more of what your looking for? :o

Okay I will wait for your update.

Bye for now!
Neil

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 11, 2009, 01:31:06 PM
Hi Neil,


I reset the test gen circuit to as close to 80Hz as possible.
Yes, the period looks fine now.


Just so you know VR1 gave me no adjustment control, If it did it was so little I could barely detect it and no way could I decrease the high by half. R5=~65k, I checked VR1 it had full range but still no control over the circuit. I swapped out C2 also.
The formule for the period where TP3 is high is:
  ln(2)*R * C

Where
  ln(2) =~ 0.693
  R (=R5+VR1) = from 68k to 115k
  C (=C2) = 100n
  So the high part of the period should be settable from 4.7ms to 8.0ms.

If the components holds these (approximate) values and the 4093 is working, it will be settable from (approx.). The transitions of these 4.7ms to 8.0ms should be nice vertical lines.
Any other case, something is wrong.

If your probes have a 1:10 or 1:100 setting (by a switch in the handle), then switch to that and adjust the V/div. accordingly (to 0.5V/div or 50mV/div) - this will reduce the amount of loading from the 'scope by the same amount.


One way to verify the function of the 4093 alone is like this:

How does that look on the scope?


Okay Here is something, when I removed the dual trace signal from the scope and dropped the TP2 it changed the freq of TP3's "HIGH" by about half.
You can see it in the last picture .  It looks like that wave is pretty close to 80Hz. The scope was set at 5v/div and 5mS/div Hope it helps, that you know this info? :-\
It sure helps. Perhaps it's overshoot from the beam when it switches between the traces.


Is the last picture more of what your looking for? :o
Unfortunately no, I'm looking for something close to what I drew in the PDF.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 11, 2009, 05:59:31 PM
Soren

Well I think you will be happy with this wave form. I found the problem. After pulling every gray hair and eyeballs laying on my desk I decided to check for continuity and sure enough the wire from pin 5 to pin 8 was internally broken.

As soon as I replaced it all adjusting could be done I made sure test generator 80Hz and set TP3 high and low to equal time.
 
Also I sent a picture of TP4 just incase TP3 was okay. ;D

After TP3 I used R6-R7 33k and Q2=new 2n4401 C3 C4 440nf then hooked scope to TP4 and this is what was on screen.




Take care

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 12, 2009, 06:17:44 PM
Hi Neil,


Well I think you will be happy with this wave form. I found the problem. After pulling every gray hair and eyeballs laying on my desk I decided to check for continuity and sure enough the wire from pin 5 to pin 8 was internally broken.
Now we're cooking ;D

 
Also I sent a picture of TP4 just incase TP3 was okay. ;D

After TP3 I used R6-R7 33k and Q2=new 2n4401 C3 C4 440nf then hooked scope to TP4 and this is what was on screen.
TP3 is perfect now  8)  8)  8)

When you measured TP4, Was the input selector in AC mode then?

With a 50% squarewave, the mean of the trace should be at V+/2 (perhaps a wee bit lower, as the outputs of the 4093 might not go all the way to the rail).
With eg. 25% of the waveform positive, TP4 should be ~25% of B+ and so on - that's how the part of the circuit you have build so far are gonna convert the RPM pulses into a proportional DC voltage that will be controlling the PWM output to the servo (with the part of the circuit still missing).

So, TP4 should reside at around +6V, but the scope trace looks like you measured in AC mode (which will have its mean at 0V).
Besides this, the 2N4401 is not the best choice (low h_FE at low currents), so you might wanna increase the values of C3 and C4 by at least a factor 5, but anything up to, say 10µF or whatever you have (of a reasonable physical size) will do.

But TP4 needs to show around half of B+ and it might be a good idea to make that happen before anything else.
First check that the input selector is in DC mode.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 12, 2009, 07:16:39 PM
Hi Neil,


Just saw that you're on-line, so I'll go to the chat for a (short, as I'm less than 4 hours from the alarm clock) while, in case you have any quick questions.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 12, 2009, 09:41:00 PM
Hi Soren

Sorry I missed you last night while you were here. I was pulling my hair out trying to fix this bugger. :-[


Well we have a problem. I have tried a lot of different things to achieve the wave form you are looking for at TP4.

Here is what has happend so far, I changed the Q2 to a mps2222a and both  C3 and C4 changed to 1uF this is all I had to choose from. Which didn't help the way the wave form looked or acted.

So I decided to insert the Tp3 signal in at a different locations.

I have sent a snip of the circuit change to achieve the wave form and amplitude needed.

Now I don't know if it was the right thing to do but it was the only way a could reach what we were searching for.

If I tied Tp3 in series to the collector of Q2 it ruined the wave But if I applied the Tp3 to the node between R6 and R7 the signal looked like your drawing and was at Approx 6volts with 50% of the wave.


Here are a couple pictures  the first is with Tp3 tied in series with collector of Q2.

 And the second picture is the wave with Tp3 tied to the node between R6 and R7

THE signal in the pictures are at TP4 location in both cases.

Soren I hope this wasn't a bad thing?  If so I am sorry but as I said with a lot of trying it was the only way to get the job done.
If you can get me there another way please help me.

Best regards
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 13, 2009, 03:56:24 AM
Hi Neil,

Well we have a problem. I have tried a lot of different things to achieve the wave form you are looking for at TP4.
[...]
I have sent a snip of the circuit change to achieve the wave form and amplitude needed.
Oh, I'm the one who have made a blunder here - sorry, i should have looked a little closer at the traces yesterday and I would have seen the problem (no supply when the 4093 output is at 0V :-[
The attached file should remedy that (for some reason, I can't ftp out of the hospital presently) - don't do it the way you did (you place a large capacitive load on the 4093 output).
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 13, 2009, 06:58:37 AM
Hello Soren

I just want to drop you a note and say thanks for sending me a option on how to fix the problem.

My Daughter is very sick today and needs my help to care for my 16 month old Grandson, so I will try later today to fix the circut.

But you will more than likely be sleeping when I get to it.

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 13, 2009, 03:04:35 PM
Hi Soren

I got a few minutes and went to get the caps and resistors needed. I put them in and here are the results.

Not good on TP4 as far as looking as it should.

So give me a good kick if I need it, and I have switched the Q2 out with all of the small to medium signal NpN's I have Maybe I have to order a different kind?

Let me  know what you think and Ill get back as soon as I can .. Things are a little crazy the next few days for me.

Thanks again Soren

Regards
Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 14, 2009, 04:17:08 AM
Hi Neil,

Not good on TP4 as far as looking as it should.
I really wonder how you're getting this "free energy" ;)
On TP3B, I guess the amplitude of the triangle waveform is a bit under 1V(?) with an average around 6V.
When you feed 6V into the next part, the transistor will drop at least 0.7V, so I don't see how you can end up with ~12V - That's breaking the Laws  of Thermodynamics ;D

Seriously... This cannot be happening, unless you have something else supplying TP4.

For the rest of the measurements (up to the point where we have a reasonable stable "DC"), when measuring the AC amplitude, try changing the settings to:
Input selector in AC mode
Increase the sensitivity to 0.2V/div
Decrease the timebase to get the extremes (top bottom) of the curve closer together
Move the trace vertically to get a good amplitude reading.


Let me  know what you think and Ill get back as soon as I can .. Things are a little crazy the next few days for me.
At least you get to spend some quality time with your grandson :)  Happy recovery to your daughter. Take it easy with the electronics - Family comes first!
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 14, 2009, 04:50:30 AM
Here's an updated schematic: http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/V8SG_4,0.pdf (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/V8SG_4,0.pdf)
And here's a file that you may find usefull (or not) http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Scope_Photo_Tips.pdf (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Scope_Photo_Tips.pdf)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 16, 2009, 11:13:38 AM
Hey Soren

Just wanted to say hello and tell you I think I am ready to get back to work on this project. Family is better Girl friends Been pacified and I am free for a while .

Must say those smooches I got off my grandson were pretty sweet! :P

Also Just to let you know I had to pick up a large proto bread board, it was getting very crowded on a 500 jumper location with the Test Gen Circuit on it and the Gov Circuit.
So I jumped up to a 2600 hole with  dual power input clips, so I will be rewiring and making room so I can see better, too many jumper in a tight space.

Quote
OH yes! I forgot. Didn't you now that I was the one and only MAN "numbskull"to be able to get more energy out, then what I put in?  Oh Yes all you have to do is pull the little red VAR button on the vertical volts division and you can get a least 100% over unity................ :D


Man when I seen that on the screen i felt like sticking my head in the ground :o and for me  not to stop and look at it and what I was showing you, knowing good and well at least .6 volts would have been pulled over the Q2. Anyways sorry for such a blunder.


So I will rewire a few things get a clear head and get you some info probably later tonight my time

Take care

And allways Best regards

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 17, 2009, 10:01:12 PM
Soren

Sorry I have not updated I am having some trouble with the circuit and trying to find out what it is?

I think I am having serious power supply problems. I am going to get a 12v batt set up so maybe it will clear things up.

I just keep getting all kinds of strange noise on the signal when I hook Vdd to R3 R4 and D1. TP1 and TP2 look crazy, but when I pull vdd off I get a clean signal from the test gen signal .

 And thats with it not connected to the 4093.

 I will change the power source and then see what we get.

Take care

Neil
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 18, 2009, 04:16:14 AM
Hi Neil,

I think I am having serious power supply problems. I am going to get a 12v batt set up so maybe it will clear things up.
Do remember to have a fuse (say 2A to 5A Slow-Blow) in-line with B+, close to the B+ terminal, if you're using a car battery.
If you have/find a spare PC-supply it could be used.

I just keep getting all kinds of strange noise on the signal when I hook Vdd to R3 R4 and D1. TP1 and TP2 look crazy, but when I pull vdd off I get a clean signal from the test gen signal .
If you're using the exact same setup as on the smaller board, it is probably a simple (however hard to spot) wiring mistake.
If you didn't have the test generator on the same supply previously, the solution could be as simple as adding a cap of say 1..100 nF (as close to the V+ pins as possible ) to each IC as possible, as each time the 555 output changes, it will give some noise on the supply line.

But re-check the wiring with a magnifier first, it's a classic that gets us all every now and then  :-[
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 18, 2009, 09:56:32 PM
Hi Soren

Quote
If you have/find a spare PC-supply it could be used
I picked up a old 250 watt PC power supply today, I'll pull the one leg to ground and she should fire right up.

I am rechecking the wiring and going over everything a little at a time. I hope

I can have it running right shortly.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 20, 2009, 02:53:15 PM
Well Hello Mr Soren

Did you think  I gave up? ;D

I thought I was going to have too! I could not find the problem for a long time.

i am now using a fused 350 watt PC power supply and it seems to work great.
 
Then I remembered about grounds making circits go nuts so I went along and made sure they were rock solid and together and wallah it was all better.

Anyways here is what I have for you, I had to make a couple changes, Don't roll your eyes...... ::)

The problem I was having was after I cleared the noise I was having on the circuit caused by bad grounds, was when I reached TP3B and put in the next part of the circuit.

 The 1uF caps flattend the signal so there was no wave form  I had to use  2 - 10nF for C3 and C4.

Here are the pictures of the wave forms I hope they will work for the project? ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 20, 2009, 02:58:02 PM
Here are the rest of the pictures up to TP5
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 20, 2009, 07:45:40 PM
Hi Neil,


Did you think  I gave up? ;D
Not at all.


Anyways here is what I have for you, I had to make a couple changes, Don't roll your eyes...... ::)
I'll do my best ;D


The 1uF caps flattend the signal so there was no wave form  I had to use  2 - 10nF for C3 and C4.
::)
Oops Sorry  ;D

You do know that the purpose of this part IS to "flatten" the signal (make it very close to DC), right?

Please swap in the 1µF again and then measure:
- The DC level, which should be around the 6V mark
- In AC mode, crank up the sensitivity (V/div) until you either get the waveform to fill at least 5 or 6 divs  or reach the max. sensitivity and then tell me the amplitude (or snap another photo of each measurements annotated with V/div).
For the latter, please slow down the timebase to get, say, 3 to 10 full periods  in each horizontal division.

When this is done, I think this part is finished and only needs to be checked for mean voltage out vs. frequency in (from eg. 75Hz to 85Hz), Input on one trace and the output on the other.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 21, 2009, 01:34:50 PM


Hi Soren

Quote
You do know that the purpose of this part IS to "flatten" the signal (make it very close to DC), right?

Yes

  The reason I was trying to hold the wave form as close to the diagram was I wasn't sure, if you need to tap off one of the test points for another part of a circuit. I know you are trying to get as close to DC for the servo.  
And that where trying to make the voltage increase and decrease with freq input change. I thought thats what we were trying to do if I am thinking wrong throw me a DOG BONE  ;D So I do understand ;)

Quote
Please swap in the 1µF again and then measure:
- The DC level, which should be around the 6V mark

It is done and it is very close to 6volts.

Quote
In AC mode, crank up the sensitivity (V/div) until you either get the waveform to fill at least 5 or 6 divs  or reach the max. sensitivity and then tell me the amplitude (or snap another photo of each measurements annotated with V/div).
For the latter, please slow down the timebase to get, say, 3 to 10 full periods  in each horizontal division.

Her are the pictures from 50mv to 5mv/div   on the AC reading and 10 ms/div time. if you need me to change the pictures again let me know  I hope you can see the form well enough  if not let me know and I'll have another go  at it :P

Quote
When this is done, I think this part is finished and only needs to be checked for mean voltage out vs. frequency in (from eg. 75Hz to 85Hz), Input on one trace and the output on the other.

As soon as you say go I will get input and output readings  ;)

But just to let you know  I did hook up both channels and when I had a input wave and output wave I fully swept VR1 on test gen circuit the output voltage only changes about .2volts. Out put signal is set on the 1v/div scale and goes Ov to .2volts.

The Test gen circuit time is changing from about 78.13HZ to 81.97HZ I cant get a 10 HZ time change from it.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 21, 2009, 03:23:38 PM
Hi,

But just to let you know  I did hook up both channels and when I had a input wave and output wave I fully swept VR1 on test gen circuit the output voltage only changes about .2volts. Out put signal is set on the 1v/div scale and goes Ov to .2volts.
0..200mV?
What happened to the "close to 6V"?


The Test gen circuit time is changing from about 78.13HZ to 81.97HZ I cant get a 10 HZ time change from it.
If you change C1 (test generator circuit) to 33nF and R1 to 200k you should get a large enough range, even with wide component tolerances.

I think we can say that the "DC" is OK for now - 20mVpp shouldn't be a problem, so let's get the test generator to cover a slightly larger range for the next bit of testing.

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 21, 2009, 06:12:51 PM
Hi Soren
Well we wont talk about the missing 5.8v from last reply. It seems the scope operator was having a lttle to many 7&7's while driving missed a switch and crashed the voltage----------- :-[ :o ::) :'( ;D


Added 233k R1 and 22nf C1 now I have a range of 71.5 to 88.9 Hz
Now when I sweep VR1 on gen tester I get about a 2v swing from the output, 4v at min freq to 6volts at Max freq

Here are the pictures from the Min 71.5 Hz and the Max 88.9 Hz with input and output signals together.

Hope this is better.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 21, 2009, 07:12:04 PM
Hi Neil,

Well we wont talk about the missing 5.8v from last reply. It seems the scope operator was having a lttle to many 7&7's while driving missed a switch and crashed the voltage----------- :-[ :o ::) :'( ;D
Yeah, I figure it must have been the 7-up  :P


Now when I sweep VR1 on gen tester I get about a 2v swing from the output, 4v at min freq to 6volts at Max freq

Here are the pictures from the Min 71.5 Hz and the Max 88.9 Hz with input and output signals together.
Great.

The next (last) block is here: http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Servo_Control_V2c.pdf (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Servo_Control_V2c.pdf) in the experimental varsion.If you'd rather do the 555 solution, please say so, but this is what you'll learn the most from.

A few values is missing (I'll correct that tomorrow), but anyway, see if you can recognise the function of the various parts and figure what's going on and what's causing what, before I explain it - that way you'll get into it much better than if you just get it laid out I think.
It can be build in blocks, but some of it cannot be tested completely until finished, as it is one control loop. It can however be verified in steps while progressing.

The output is supposed to drive the servo directly (it's got a supply for the servo of ~5.6V) and just need a 3-pin connector for it.

When all is finished, we have to get all the corrections and the substitutions you made and draw it all into one schematic (and make a PCB layout).
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 21, 2009, 09:15:24 PM
Soren

Experimental Version! is my pick 8)

If you dont mind? Seeing it might take a little more time?
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 22, 2009, 04:41:44 PM
Hi Neil,


Don't mind at all.

Here's an annotated schematic that should help getting your head around it:

(http://That.Homepage.dk/Img/Schem_Ann.gif)
Open in another window or use this link to fetch it full size: http://That.Homepage.dk/Img/Schem_Ann.gif (http://That.Homepage.dk/Img/Schem_Ann.gif)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 23, 2009, 11:16:41 AM
Soren

Thank you for the schematic I will gather the parts and get started. I might have to order a couple things as Radio shack is not handleing in store stock like they use to.

But as soon as I get the goods I'll be on it. ;)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on November 23, 2009, 02:33:14 PM
Hi Soren

Just a quick question. On a couple of the resistor values like R1 and R3 are separated by k.
Just so i am clear if it is 4k7 you are wanting a 47k resistor correct?


I just ordered the parts from Digi-key Inc. No one had anything around here, so a couple things I will have to wait till Monday to get, with the Thanksgiving holiday coming.

I will put together what I can now and wait for the rest.


Oh yes almost  forgot wanted to show you the turkey we will eat on Thursday! It brightens your holiday and is very low in calories :o

http://www.elexp.com/kit_2019.htm (http://www.elexp.com/kit_2019.htm)

Just wanted to ask! :)

"No matter How, When, or Where you celebrate I am sending You a Very Special Thanks and Happy Holiday too you and yours as we celebrate here in the USA" ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on November 24, 2009, 05:55:11 PM
Hi Neil,

Just a quick question. On a couple of the resistor values like R1 and R3 are separated by k.
Just so i am clear if it is 4k7 you are wanting a 47k resistor correct?
The "k" takes the place of the decimal point => 4k7 = 4.7 kOhm = 4700 Ohm.


Oh yes almost  forgot wanted to show you the turkey we will eat on Thursday! It brightens your holiday and is very low in calories :o
Don't keep it in the oven for too long though  :P

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your circles!
We aren't celebrating Thanksgiving here, but tonight it's 9 years exactly since my SO and I met and we had chicken for dinner, so we had our own version you might say :)

Just noticed your PM since I had the sound on (which I only have when I'm expecting to listens to something). Too bad I didn't see it when you wrote it (if I was online then), but we'll have a chat some other time ;D

Enjoy your turkey this Thursday (the meat version) and your family and friends. I'll be in the OR all day Thursday (but luckily I'm not the one on the table).
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 01, 2009, 07:28:43 PM
Hi Soren

Long time no type ;D

I just wanted to let you know I got  the parts in today and will start tomorrow building.

 Hope all has been well for you, and I will send a update tomorrow night.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 02, 2009, 08:53:17 PM
Hello Soren
Quick question ::)

When I am at TP11 should I be seeing this? :o ::) ???
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 03, 2009, 07:22:00 AM
Hi Neil,

When I am at TP11 should I be seeing this? :o ::) ???
I cannot tell which channel I'm looking at and the timebase is not too clear either, but I'd have to say no, you should see something close to what I drew on page 2 of the file "Servo_Control_V2c.pdf".

If you connect a wire from TP13 to B+, TP11 should measure close to 0V (up to ~half a volt).
If you connect a wire from TP13 to Gnd, TP11 (and C1) should charge to 9..12V in a few milliseconds.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 03, 2009, 10:55:10 PM
Soren

Sorry I don't have more info, but I am still tracing and changing out parts trying to get the timing chart waves.

it's being a pain >:(

I'll stay on it ;D

You may want to send me a schematic of the 555 time circuit. Then I can build it on a separate board. With it being the easier set up. Then I can use it as a guide for my signal output while working on the more complex servo circuit.

Your thoughts please! ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: definitionofis on December 04, 2009, 08:27:46 AM
I read the whole thread.
In case this is not obvious, I guess you know about solderless prototyping boards:

http://www.dipmicro.com/store/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=165 (http://www.dipmicro.com/store/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=165)

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 04, 2009, 09:26:13 AM
Hi Neil,

You may want to send me a schematic of the 555 time circuit. Then I can build it on a separate board. With it being the easier set up. Then I can use it as a guide for my signal output while working on the more complex servo circuit.

Your thoughts please! ;D
I'll dig it out either (much) later tonight , or sometimes tomorrow, as I'm going to a theater play tonight.
Unfortunately, you won't be able to compare waveforms between those two circuits, except for the final output, as they use different methods to get there.

But...
Let's break it down a bit.
Remove anything but:
R1 to R4, C1, D1, Q1 and IC2
and test like I described.


If you feel you're banging your head against the wall a little too much these days,
I could make you a much simpler/smaller/cheaper schematic with a tiny µ-controller and some "glue" parts.
It won't teach you a thing, but it might get your blood pressure down a few notches ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 04, 2009, 09:34:08 AM
Hi,

I read the whole thread.
In case this is not obvious, I guess you know about solderless prototyping boards:

Well, you obviously missed posts like this one:  ;D
http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotforum/index.php?topic=9087.msg72956#msg72956 (http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotforum/index.php?topic=9087.msg72956#msg72956)

As you can see, Neil do build on a solderless board. (Personally, I'm not too happy with solderless boards, as I have seen too many errors caused by them, but they do save time for quickies).
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: definitionofis on December 04, 2009, 09:50:53 AM
Yes, I must have missed that post.


Hi,

I read the whole thread.
In case this is not obvious, I guess you know about solderless prototyping boards:

Well, you obviously missed posts like this one:  ;D
http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotforum/index.php?topic=9087.msg72956#msg72956 (http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotforum/index.php?topic=9087.msg72956#msg72956)

As you can see, Neil do build on a solderless board. (Personally, I'm not too happy with solderless boards, as I have seen too many errors caused by them, but they do save time for quickies).

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 04, 2009, 04:24:28 PM
Hi Soren

Quote
But...
Let's break it down a bit.
Remove anything but:
R1 to R4, C1, D1, Q1 and IC2
and test like I described.

Soren I have to be out also tonight so I will start testing tomorrow afternoon, and break this thing down to see if I can get a handle on it.

Hope you had a good time last night?

Till tomorrow
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 04, 2009, 08:23:03 PM
Soren

Breathing IN pause and Breathing out Pause helps blood pressure  :P

Here are the readings for TP11 with TP13 to B+ and GRD.

With TP13 to B+, TP11 did not show any voltage rise even with scope set to 0.5v/div but if I put D4 back in it read just over 1.2 volt.  Right or wrong I just wanted to see what was going to happen with D4 in play. :o

With Tp13 to GRD Tp11 was about 11volts with.

Both IC2 and Q1 were replace with new parts.

Now hear is a little more break down of testing. I separate CCG part of the circuit and took a reading at output at D1 it was ~11v.
Then I tested and swaped out Q1 for a new part. Then took reading with IC2 back in circuit. [email protected]+, -Tp11= 0v Then [email protected] TP11=11v.

With circuit tested as your request the voltage at Q1's  Base is ~0.5v

First 2 photo's is with D4 in circuit. Just so you know.
Last 2 photo's without D4 I tried it both ways reading was still 10v with or without D4.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 05, 2009, 08:35:02 AM
Hi Neil,

Breathing IN pause and Breathing out Pause helps blood pressure  :P
Yeah, we tend to forget sometimes  :-\


With TP13 to B+, TP11 did not show any voltage even with scope set to 0.5v/div but if I put D4 back in it read just over 1.2 volt.  Right or wrong I just wanted to see what was going to happen with D4 in play. :o
Is this without any input and only with the mentioned components - apart from D4(?), which I'd really like you to tell me more about  ???
Perhaps "My forgetter's gettin' better" as the song goes, but I don't recall any D4?

Wonder where the pulses come from as well, as there should be nothing but DC at this stage alone.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 05, 2009, 09:15:15 AM
Quote
Is this without any input and only with the mentioned components


Yes only  components requested!
B+ and GRD applied to TP13 - IC2 has B+ applied to terminal leg 1

Quote
apart from D4(?), which I'd really like you to tell me more about  ???
Perhaps "My forgetter's gettin' better" as the song goes, but I don't recall any D4?

In the timimg cap /plus 3v shunt part of the circuit , D4 is a 2.7v zener at least I thought it was :-\

Quote
Wonder where the pulses come from as well, as there should be nothing but DC at this stage alone.
???

Just so you know when Tp13 is @ B+, the voltage @ the base of Q1 is 0.5v.
I am going to isolate this circuit out to another proto board and power supply so I have no interferance from other already built circuits :P

I'll keep trying ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: definitionofis on December 05, 2009, 03:02:23 PM
Are these mechanical governors not precise enough for electricity generation ?
That woodygasifier.com guy mentioned them in one of his videos.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/NEW-HOOF-ENGINE-GOVERNOR-Item-28-1201_W0QQitemZ200401862288QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea8e1be90 (http://cgi.ebay.ca/NEW-HOOF-ENGINE-GOVERNOR-Item-28-1201_W0QQitemZ200401862288QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea8e1be90)

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 06, 2009, 08:00:11 AM
Hi Neil,


Yes only  components requested!
B+ and GRD applied to TP13 - IC2 has B+ applied to terminal leg 1
OK
The pulses shouldn't be there if coupled as I asked you to.


In the timimg cap /plus 3v shunt part of the circuit , D4 is a 2.7v zener at least I thought it was :-\
?
Quote
Remove anything but:
R1 to R4, C1, D1, Q1 and IC2
and test like I described.
No D4 there ;)
I don't know whether you refer to something else, because I'm really puzzled, as I have just reviewed each schematic (Please tell me which, if you remember)?
Perhaps I have renumbered a schematic after posting it (but it would be very unlike me to change something allready posted without a new name).
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 07, 2009, 10:42:48 AM
Hi Soren

Quote
No D4 there ;)
I don't know whether you refer to something else, because I'm really puzzled, as I have just reviewed each schematic (Please tell me which, if you remember)?
Perhaps I have renumbered a schematic after posting it (but it would be very unlike me to change something allready posted without a new name quote]


Here is what I am looking at and seeing a D4 schematic below ;D. And your link to it.

http://that.homepage.dk/Img/Schem_Ann.gif (http://that.homepage.dk/Img/Schem_Ann.gif)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 07, 2009, 11:27:35 AM
Hi Soren

Okay now Components are isolated only R1-R4,Q1,C1,D1,IC2 are in circuit.

Readings @ Tp11 are 11.5v when TP13 is @ GRD And Milli Volts when Tp13 is @ B+.
And there is no pulse ;D


"Question" when Tp13 is not hooked to anything what should the reading @ Tp11 be?

I am getting a reading of 11.5v, but at this point I'm not sure of anything :o :P ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 07, 2009, 06:03:48 PM
Hi Neil,


Sorry about the D4 issue!
D4 is only in that schematic and since I re-worked it in a paint program, I had it in a different folder.
I'll put it into the regular schematic in next revision, since it keeps the cap from going too low.


Okay now Components are isolated only R1-R4,Q1,C1,D1,IC2 are in circuit.

Readings @ Tp11 are 11.5v when TP13 is @ GRD And Milli Volts when Tp13 is @ B+.
And there is no pulse ;D
Great, that's how it should be ;D


"Question" when Tp13 is not hooked to anything what should the reading @ Tp11 be?

I am getting a reading of 11.5v, but at this point I'm not sure of anything :o :P ;D
That's to be expexted, the grounding of TP13 was originally ment to force the base of Q1 in the complete circuit, but in the limited form, R4 will keep the base low.


For the next step, add the parts not shaded:
(http://That.Homepage.dk/Img/Servo_Driver_part_2.png) (http://That.Homepage.dk/Img/Servo_Driver_part_2.png)
The extra parts marked (V)Rxn is to simulate the varying DC signal from 1/3 to 2/3 of the supply voltage.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 07, 2009, 11:51:40 PM
Hello Soren

Just need some clarifying of a couple things.

1.TP13 is shaded but is connected to R3. Where did you want that connection to end at? GRD, B+, or does not matter?

2. Rx1, RX2, VRx1 are wired and the center sweep leg on VRx1 shows a range of 4v to 8v.

Now that being said, I am cloudy on where the signal is coming from that is being connected to VRx1. and where am I to bring the signal to pin 5 on IC1B from?

Sorry if this is a silly question ::) Just not clear on the input and output from the VRX1 point.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 08, 2009, 11:37:48 AM
Hi Neil,

1.TP13 is shaded but is connected to R3. Where did you want that connection to end at? GRD, B+, or does not matter?
Same as before, loose wire that you can touch to B+


2. Rx1, RX2, VRx1 are wired and the center sweep leg on VRx1 shows a range of 4v to 8v.

Now that being said, I am cloudy on where the signal is coming from that is being connected to VRx1. and where am I to bring the signal to pin 5 on IC1B from?
It goes to the connector SV1. It's just for testing - 'scope on TP11 and TP12. When VRx1 is varied, you should see different delays between TP11 and TP12 going low.
The higher the voltage on "Signal", the longer the delay should be.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 08, 2009, 12:33:00 PM
Hi Neil,

In case you wonder, here's how the entire circuit could be made with a microcontroller: Microcontroller based Governor (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/V8gov_PIC-based.pdf)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Daanii on December 08, 2009, 01:33:34 PM
I'm enjoying following the development of the motor governor. Back months ago, I was skeptical about a hardware solution. It's been interesting to see how one can be made. Good luck with it.

Just one question. Is the goal of the project to turn wood chips into electricity? That is, gasify the wood chips, use the gas to run the engine, which turns the generator, which produces electricity?
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 08, 2009, 06:14:33 PM


Quote
Just one question. Is the goal of the project to turn wood chips into electricity? That is, gasify the wood chips, use the gas to run the engine, which turns the generator, which produces electricity?

 

That is the idea and plan. ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 08, 2009, 06:44:57 PM
Hi Soren
Quote
In case you wonder, here's how the entire circuit could be made with a microcontroller: Microcontroller based Governor (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/V8gov_PIC-based.pdf)
Kinda makes things easier ;D now if I could only code.......lol always something ;D  

Are you trying to temp me?  :P




Soren below is a picture of how the circuit is wired right now. Is this correct?

I don't want to be confused at this point with the wiring because I am getting 12v signal @Tp11 but no pulse or voltage change when VRx1 is changed. And on Tp12 shows 0 volts and nothing happens when VRx1 is varied. pin 5 on ICB1 has a 4v to 8volts applied depending on VRx1 level and pin 6 has TP11 voltage.
I have switched out 3 different LM393 with no luck....................HELP! SOS! ??? :'(

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 09, 2009, 04:47:56 AM
Hi Neil,

Kinda makes things easier ;D now if I could only code.......lol always something ;D  

Are you trying to temp me?  :P
Nope, I just wanted to reassure you, that if you find you're running tired of building and testing, this is another solution (or punishment for giving up ;D).

The coding is no problem - 10 to 20 minutes max. (5 is probably more realistic) and the hex file can be posted.

The largest obstacle here is, that you'd have to find someone in your end of the world, that is willing to burn the hex file into the controller, or you could build a very simple programmer, if you have a PC with either a parallel (printer) port or a serial port.


I don't want to be confused at this point with the wiring because I am getting 12v signal @Tp11 but no pulse or voltage change when VRx1 is changed. And on Tp12 shows 0 volts and nothing happens when VRx1 is varied. pin 5 on ICB1 has a 4v to 8volts applied depending on VRx1 level and pin 6 has TP11 voltage.
I have switched out 3 different LM393 with no luck....................HELP! SOS! ??? :'(
That is correctly wired, but you need to use your 'scope on TP11 and TP12 and then touch the wire on TP13 to B+ to get the pulses. Vary the pot and touch TP13 to B+ again for a new pulse.
You are looking for varying delays between the pulses on the two traces.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Daanii on December 09, 2009, 01:32:29 PM
Another option is to use an Arduino. You can write the code in C on your computer, download it to the Arduino's microcontroller through a USB port, and get the circuit to work. Then you could pop the microcontroller out of the Arduino and put it and the other needed components on a circuit board. That would give you a more permanent device.

That's the software option I was thinking of months ago. But you said you cannot code. You can do electronics, and Soeren has spent many hours giving you his help. You're close with this hardware solution. Don't give up now!
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 09, 2009, 05:18:11 PM
Hi Soren

Quote
That is correctly wired, but you need to use your 'scope on TP11 and TP12 and then touch the wire on TP13 to B+ to get the pulses. Vary the pot and touch TP13 to B+ again for a new pulse.
You are looking for varying delays between the pulses on the two traces.

Well I am at a dead stop! I have checked the wiring and switched out lm393's and still no readings that should be there.

 I Will try again tomorrow. Sorry for the delay but it's just not working yet :-[

 I am going to change out the other components to see if it helps.


I'll redo this again. ;)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 09, 2009, 05:25:36 PM
Hi Daanii

 
Quote
You're close with this hardware solution. Don't give up now!

I wont till Soren gets fed up with me and say hit the road Neil :o

I really want this to work too! ;)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 10, 2009, 09:13:06 AM
Hi Neil,

Quote
That is correctly wired, but you need to use your 'scope on TP11 and TP12 and then touch the wire on TP13 to B+ to get the pulses. Vary the pot and touch TP13 to B+ again for a new pulse.
You are looking for varying delays between the pulses on the two traces.

Well I am at a dead stop! I have checked the wiring and switched out lm393's and still no readings that should be there.
My fault entirely!
Sorry about that, but I forgot to note down R8 as one of the resistors to include (from TP12 to B+).
It has to be there, since the comparator, LM393, has got an open collector output, so it only pulls towards ground and need the pull up to show anything but low.
Very sorry  :-[

My explanation could have been better as well, so here goes:
As long as you touch the wire (TP13) to B+, TP11 is gonna be low, either less than a few hundred mV or around 3V if you have the zener diode in circuit (doesn't matter whether this or that at this moment).
As soon as you remove the wire, you should see TP11 rise like _/¨ (in a few ms, so don't blink) and stop somewhat below B+
When the voltage rise on TP11 reach the same potential as you have set "Signal" to, TP12 should go low.
It's the delay from you release TP11 to TP12 goes low that you should be able to vary with the pot.

How it works:
Lets say you have set "Signal" to 6V.
When the rising voltage on C1 (TP11) reach a shade over 6V, IC1B will go low, since it's non-inverting input is now lower than the inverting input.

It's this low going pulse that will be used for resetting the flip flop consisting of IC3A and IC3b, when we add the next block.

Hope that helps - I assume it's R8 that had you pulling hair - once again, I am sorry for that!
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 10, 2009, 01:38:05 PM
Hi Soren

Quote
My fault entirely!
Sorry about that, but I forgot to note down R8 as one of the resistors to include (from TP12 to B+).
It has to be there, since the comparator, LM393, has got an open collector output, so it only pulls towards ground and need the pull up to show anything but low.
Very sorry  :-[

Soren, no need for sorry, if not for you non of this would be possible. ("Thank you") For bearing with my lack of knowledge. ;)

Also maybe I should pull a data sheet now and then and learn too.......... :o ::)

Picture below is maybe what I should have looked for... ??? ::)

And on top of that it's nice to have the smartest guy in the room stub his toe! :D ;D

Moving on now! ;)



The pulse on TP11 is just like you said when it goes high its perfect.

When TP13  is released from GRD. TP12 goes low any where from 2ms to 5ms after signal from TP11 starts rising, while changing VRx1 from 4v to 8v.  ;D

Also Thank you for a little more explaining what is happening, as it lets me look back and see how things are acting in the circuit. :D ;D

Tell me whats next. :P

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 10, 2009, 05:53:36 PM
Hi Neil,

Tell me whats next. :P
The exact timing, we can trim later (it has to be adapted to the range of the real signal anyhow).

Next step is IC3 and surrounding components, up to (and including) TP15, but keep out R10 an onwards for now.

Sleep time here, but I guess you still have some hours to spare ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 10, 2009, 10:43:37 PM
Goodday Soren

Quote
Next step is IC3 and surrounding components, up to (and including) TP15, but keep out R10 an onwards for now
.

It is done!  I'm not sure if I am testing the right way? ::)

Here is what I am doing.
Dual trace of TP12 and TP15 and still Using TP13 to B+ to make TP12 go low.
And when I do this TP15 goes high at the same time.

There is no lag time that I can see, both trace rise and fall at equal speeds.

Hope I did it right ?;D

If not I'm sure you will give me a good slap :o


I know at some point a real signal has to be added, but just did this to see how the circuit was reacting!

 
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 12, 2009, 05:20:15 AM
Hi Neil,

Dual trace of TP12 and TP15 and still Using TP13 to B+ to make TP12 go low.
And when I do this TP15 goes high at the same time.

There is no lag time that I can see, both trace rise and fall at equal speeds.

I know at some point a real signal has to be added, but just did this to see how the circuit was reacting!
Here's an updated schematic (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Servo_Control_V2,2+.pdf).
There was a logical error, which your description, of TP15 going low when TP12 is (as it should go low when Reset), revealed to me.
On p2, there's  a drawing of the FlipFlop and the MonoFlop in their basic forms for explanation.

When this is done, it should be running by itself, and giving servo pulses (although at 12V!) of varying widths when you change the pot (VRx1) not drawn here.
When you have this result, we can go on to make trim the pulse width.

Btw. R9 is an odd value. Either use the nearest standard value (510k) for now, make it out of two resistors (510k+12k or use a trimmer of 22k with the 510k), but the exact timing is not that important now. p2 gives the formula, I have calculated for 17ms (for a total period of 18 to 19 ms).
The formula is in p2 as well.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 12, 2009, 04:07:25 PM
Hi Soren

Just wanted to tell you I will be gone till Monday night. GF is dragging me away for a couple days :P

I rewired the updated version but no pulses. I will try again Monday.

Also as I read your last comment about my description of what was happening with TP12 and TP15 it may have been stated wrong on my part.
Quote
There was a logical error, which your description, of TP15 going low when TP12 is (as it should go low when Reset), revealed to me

Quote
Dual trace of TP12 and TP15 and still Using TP13 to B+ to make TP12 go low.
And when I do this TP15 goes high at the same time.

I was trying to say TP15 went high, when TP12 went low.  To me it sounded as if you were thinking I said they both went low when TP12 went low?

 But I have already changed the circuit and I will have to go back and check it to makes sure.

I will recheck myself Monday. Sorry for the confusion and  delay :-[

Thanks for your help always
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 14, 2009, 01:33:46 PM
Hello Soren

These quotes are from 3 post back.!!!!!!

Quote
Next step is IC3 and surrounding components, up to (and including) TP15, but keep out R10 an onwards for now
.

It is done!  I'm not sure if I am testing the right way?

Quote
Here is what I am doing.
Dual trace of TP12 and TP15 and still Using TP13 to B+ to make TP12 go low.
And when I do this TP15 goes high at the same time.

There is no lag time that I can see, both trace rise and fall at equal speeds.

Okay Soren this is where I want to make sure you are not confused by what I am saying. So I know for sure to change the circuit to the new Updated ver 2.2

When I Bring TP13 to B+, TP12 is on a High Signal
When I remove TP13 from B+ TP12 goes to a LOW signal


NOW HERE IS WHAT I WANT TO MAKE SURE IS CLEAR

TP15 is going just the opposite of TP12

IF one of the Traces is HIGH the other is LOW

I am sorry to go over this again but when I read your post about a logic error and changed the circuit.  I reread your stament again and it seemed that you may have not understood what I was saying . The way I stated it!

So after you read this post please Tell me to continue with VER-2.0 or move along and update to Ver2.2

So very sorry for the mix up :'(
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 14, 2009, 04:28:10 PM
Hi Neil,

So after you read this post please Tell me to continue with VER-2.0 or move along and update to Ver2.2
Actually, I've made one more (small) change to ensure levels, please build after this (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Servo_Control_V2,3.pdf)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 14, 2009, 11:10:04 PM
Hi Soren

Well I assembled the circuit up to TP16 and leaving out the  IC4 section and its components I started to test.

I hooked up a trace and it was running, @ TP15 12v/1.5ms high and 0v-17ms low, Also I had no change in pulse width by varying VRx1.

Then I started to Take Dual Trace on Q and /Q  it just stopped before I hooked up the 2nd channel.

Quote
And Cussing was herd far and wide >:(  Well at least in my head :P


Anyways its late time for sleep will try to find problem in the morning. It pretty much looks like a birds nest on the board. :o

Just wanted to let you know I was getting a pulse from it. Goodnight! And Goodmorning to you!
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 15, 2009, 03:59:39 PM
Hi Neil,

Sounds strange.
Perhaps you should go over it with good light and a magnifying glass, it's very easy to misconnect something when making prototypes.

Please take a fresh look at it and then tell me if your results are the same then.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 15, 2009, 09:37:03 PM
HI Soren

Hope you can make some sense of this?

As at this point I am lost, SO what's New  
 There is no inverting or time offset. and signal is strange @ SET and no signal @ RESET

Here is a picture of the set/reset .

I went back and checked the TP12 and it responded HIGH and low as TP13 was @ B+ and GND.  Also I checked TP11 and it was making it 2ms rise signal /also when TP13 is @ B+ and removed from B+.

I hope you can see something I don't see or understand. To help us here.

So I will let you tell me what you want me to check a little at a time to find the bugs. :P

We are getting close to the end but it's getting harder

 I wish I understood Transistors better, as I think that is where I lose the action of the circuit.
 I know that they are acting as switches as the gate voltage or current changes .

So let me ask and no laughing :P

Here we go, Pin 10 of the mono-flop is going HIGH- LOW thats switching Q2 HIGH- LOW onto the base of
Q1. Q1 sends a high low pulse to IC1B pin6. IC1B has a ref voltage at pin5 that can fluctuate and when pin 6 of the IC1b starts going high. When it reaches a voltage level just above pin 5 of IC1b PIN 7 it  in turn makes the signal High at TP12 to the pin 6 IC3B of the Flip-Flop? ??? :-\ :o

I just wanted you to hear where some of my confusion  when trying to trace why the circuit is acting strange.

I will make the next post so you can see a few other TEST POINTS maybe it will help ???

I am very sorry if  I'm mucking things up. I don't mean too    
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 15, 2009, 09:42:01 PM
Hi Soren
Here are some more TP's
Make sure to read previous post ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 16, 2009, 03:50:57 PM
Hi Neil,

As at this point I am lost, SO what's New  
 There is no inverting or time offset. and signal is strange @ SET and no signal @ RESET
The signal seems fine at set (it's the cap differentiating the clean square wave) as far as I can see - a picture with a shorter timebase (showing the pulse wider) will help deciding.
There must be a signal at reset or you wouldn't get any shift at the TP15 (TP16 is not very revealing as it will allways be the same as TP15 just cut down to the voltage of the zener).

If you had only Flip and no Flop (sort of speaking), it would stay in the Flipped position ;)


I went back and checked the TP12 and it responded HIGH and low as TP13 was @ B+ and GND.  Also I checked TP11 and it was making it 2ms rise signal /also when TP13 is @ B+ and removed from B+.
When you touch a wire to a point and release it from the same point, you actually make a train of pulses (try 'scoping the wire while you do it. Even with a push button you'll get contact bounce. It sounds like it's this that makes the pulse on contact/end contact.


I wish I understood Transistors better, as I think that is where I lose the action of the circuit.
 I know that they are acting as switches as the gate voltage or current changes .
Yes, they're used as switches here, which is the simplest way of using transistors.
When the base of an NPN (Q1) goes higher than around 0.65V above the emitter, the collector-emitter stretch "opens".
When the base of a PNP (Q2) goes lower than ~0.65V below the emitter, the emitter-collector stretch opens.


So let me ask and no laughing :P

Here we go, Pin 10 of the mono-flop is going HIGH- LOW thats switching Q2 HIGH- LOW onto the base of
Q1. Q1 sends a high low pulse to IC1B pin6. IC1B has a ref voltage at pin5 that can fluctuate and when pin 6 of the IC1b starts going high. When it reaches a voltage level just above pin 5 of IC1b PIN 7 it  in turn makes the signal High at TP12 to the pin 6 IC3B of the Flip-Flop? ??? :-\ :o

I just wanted you to hear where some of my confusion  when trying to trace why the circuit is acting strange.
Pin 10 of the MF is low for about 17ms (with the values mentioned) and since it's pulling the base of Q2 low, Q2 opens and makes TP13 and hence the base of Q1 high. This makes Q1 drain C1 down to around 3V (due to the zener).
C1 is kept discharged to these ~3V for the 17ms.
Then the MF times out, the FF is set, Q2 closes, Q1 closes and C1 starts charging with a linear ramp, due to constant current generator IC2.
When C1 reaches the voltage at "Signal", the comparator IC1B goes low, resetting the FF, which triggers the MF and the whole thing repeats.

To see some of the pulses, you need to adjust the trigger to "Negative trigger" and adjust until it gives a steady trig on a low going pulse. Then you can change the time base to show the pulse in more detail. (For a positive going pulse, the trigger needs to be set to "positive trigger" of course).

Varying the "Signal" input from 4V to 8V will give different width of the output pulse, since when 4V, C1 only need to charge 1V up, while if at 8V, C1 needs to charge 5V up and since it's charged by a CCG, it will take 5 times as long, so the pulse should be 5 times as wide.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 17, 2009, 08:39:31 PM
Hi Soren

Quote
If you had only Flip and no Flop (sort of speaking), it would stay in the Flipped position ;)

I think that statement is true. ;)

 But!!!!!!! ;D the circuit is so sensitive that anything applied to RESET pin 6 will trigger it and it will stay running. :o

Tp12 does not have to be connected to the RESET for it to run. If I touch and leave a open wire to pin 6 of the IC3B it runs while it is connected. It is like the smallest bit of capacitance or inductance I don't know if it is either,triggers it and keeps it setting and resetting.

And if I put a trace on TP12 while connected to /R I have to set the volts /div to 5milli volts to even see a pulse on the trace.

Now in the picture below you see a pulse high for ~2ms @TP16 with only a open wire @ /R, then if I apply TP12 that pulse shortens to ~ 1ms. But if I vary VRx1 it has no effect at all on the pulse width.

I hope I am making this clear enough. There is something wrong here I just don't know how to say it, correctly.

I am very sorry!
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 18, 2009, 11:04:25 AM
Hi Neil,

But!!!!!!! ;D the circuit is so sensitive that anything applied to RESET pin 6 will trigger it and it will stay running. :o

Tp12 does not have to be connected to the RESET for it to run. If I touch and leave a open wire to pin 6 of the IC3B it runs while it is connected. It is like the smallest bit of capacitance or inductance I don't know if it is either,triggers it and keeps it setting and resetting.
Yes, it's a feature with any input that has so high an impedance like the CMOS4k series.
You never ever let them be unterminated (or let them get wet or feed them after midnight ;D)!


I hope I am making this clear enough. There is something wrong here I just don't know how to say it, correctly.

I am very sorry!
Don't be, just reapply R8, which clearly isn't keeping the input in check.
(And let's hope it didn't kick the bucket - high impedance circuits are very ESD prone if not handled correctly - some MOSFETs are very sensitive in that way, CMOS4k has got input protection diodes at least).
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 18, 2009, 12:10:09 PM
Hi Soren

Problem fixed found a new circuit builder. ::)

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 19, 2009, 11:04:53 AM
Hi Soeren

Well after a couple hours of checking and re looking at a couple data sheets I have found the cause of the pulse width problem!

You wont believe what it was :o


It was the the circuit builder :o :o :o :P :P :'( :'( :'( :-X

I am so sorry if I made you waste time trying to figure this out.  I went back and looked at the PNP data and I had it wired wrong. >:(

So now we have a pulse width that varies from ~1ms high to 3.5ms high and full sweep is 19ms  ;D

Once again I ask please forgive the screw up. It's birds nest soup here and it only takes one wrong connection. I am learning allot at your expense.


Now we can move along if that is okay? I will finish the 7805 supply and update you.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 19, 2009, 04:00:20 PM
Hello Soeren

A big day for me ;D

I hooked up the Servo :o

It was working as I adjusted VRx1 making the Servo arm move back and forth. How happy was I ?:P PRICELESS ;D

Okay now that my little moment of joy over took me I have to pull myself back together now and move along ;)

Just so you know. I am using a Computer power supply and the servo is steady as a rock and moves smoothly.  But the 7805 VR is getting smoking hot fast cant leave on more than 30 seconds. HEAT SINK?

Then I hooked up a older heathkit 0-15 volt supply and it began to have a very short jerky action continuously, it does respond to pulse change but shaky while doing it.

The reason I mention this is how filtered is a B+ supply from a car battery
                

 Just so you know, I am 51y/o and I must say I felt like a little kid at Christmas when that Servo Started to respond. :D



[youtube=640,505]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYm8qFIvn9w[/youtube]
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 20, 2009, 05:57:16 AM
Hi Neil,

I have been a little busy the last two days, shopping for X-mas presents etc. so have only had a few moments here and there to look it over. I opened this page a couple of days ago and have been looking at it every now and then, while examining the schematic, datasheets and other stuff relevant, trying to figure where the problem was.
Now I was gonna ask you to make a few measurements and component swaps, as I thought that maybe the set pulse in the photo 100_0634 might be so wide it made the reset go haywire.
When I click'd on "Quote", I got the "session time out error", so refreshed the page and the post I was trying to answer was changed, so I wondered whether the browser was playing tricks on me ;D
Luckily it wasn't

It was working as I adjusted VRx1 making the Servo arm move back and forth. How happy was I ?:P PRICELESS ;D
YES!
Victory is allways sweeter after a hard battle  ;D


Just so you know. I am using a Computer power supply and the servo is steady as a rock and moves smoothly.  But the 7805 VR is getting smoking hot fast cant leave on more than 30 seconds. HEAT SINK?
I don't know how much current your servo draws (unfortunately, the guy who made the Servo Data Base didn't include that rather important spec.), so this is slightly theoretical, but let's say the entire circuit takes 500mA and you use 12V for supply.
Then: (12V-5.6V) * 0.5A = 3.2W is dissipated in the regulator (if it draws 1A, it's 6.4W of course).
(With around 13.8V supply, the dissipation will be 4.1W for 500mA).
So yes, you need a heat sink!
If you don't have one available (lots to find in old cathode ray [non flatscreen] TV sets, old broken PC-supplies etc.), you could use a piece of aluminum or copper bar/plate as a temporary sink.


Then I hooked up a older heathkit 0-15 volt supply and it began to have a very short jerky action continuously, it does respond to pulse change but shaky while doing it.

The reason I mention this is how filtered is a B+ supply from a car battery
Did you 'scope the supply voltage (B+) when you used this supply?
Either it cannot put out the current needed (if it has got a relatively high output impedance), or perhaps its regulation goes crazy when the current surges start.
A big fat capacitor (eg. 4,700µF/40V) over B+ should help, but it would be more for the experience, as you won't have that problem when running from a lead-acid battery (which is very low impedance).

A car battery in itself is the most regulated source I can think of, so any issues in that department would be noise from the generator or ignition. Should there be any problems when you run it from the battery, a simple LC-filter can be used and if there's radiated noise, a metal box connected to the motor block would take care of that.


Just so you know, I am 51y/o and I must say I felt like a little kid at Christmas when that Servo Started to respond. :D
Hey, I'm born in March '58 and seeing your message and watching the video made me go *YESSS!* as well.
Watching the video, I fully realize the challenge you have seen - That is a serious bowl of spaghetti you cooked up ;D
Let's get the regulator in check and then put the parts together.

Please post what you used for C6, C7 and any substitutions you made along the way (If you remember them), so the schematic can be updated.
It's been 3 months plus, but perhaps it could be ready (at least on the bread board) before Christmas.
When it's all done, I'll lay out a PCB for it.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 20, 2009, 08:25:13 AM
Hello Soeren

Well here are the final changes to the circuits.

RED INDICATES CHANGE!

I thought pictures  would be easier. And I will add a Heat Sink to the 7805 ;)

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 20, 2009, 10:46:56 AM
Hi Neil,

R1 that you changed to 1k5, you really should replace with the stated value (1k2), as this is calculated for minimum temperature drift.

Don't forget that we still have to get the timing values tuned correctly (not a big deal, but it has to be done).
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 20, 2009, 12:57:50 PM
Merry Christmas Soeren


Quote
R1 that you changed to 1k5, you really should replace with the stated value (1k2), as this is calculated for minimum temperature drift.
I don't happen to have a 1.2k resistor, local or from my parts store as a tried to get them. If I add a 1k+220ohm in series will that be close enough to hold the temp drift?

Quote
Don't forget that we still have to get the timing values tuned correctly (not a big deal, but it has to be done).
I will be waiting for your instructions.

Just a little information, in the video you see the Proto board. All 3 circuits are there, Signal Gen, Freq to voltage circuit and final Servo control section.
And I did try tying it all together and it did work as I increased and decreased frequency the Servo responded ~pretty much as it should. :o There was a couple issues but like you said there are other things to be finished. Before we discuss this stuff. :P

Well I am off to shopping also, my G/F is taking me to a tool store for me to pick my goodies ;D I like it that way I get just what I want from Santa ;)

Then off to her house and I will be kept captive for the evening. :P ;)

SO have a good night and I will look in on the posts tomorrow.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 21, 2009, 01:29:27 PM
Hi Neil,

I don't happen to have a 1.2k resistor, local or from my parts store as a tried to get them. If I add a 1k+220ohm in series will that be close enough to hold the temp drift?
Yes, that will be 1.7% off and if you use 5% tolerance resistors, it is well within spec.
Another way to arrive at 1k2 is to add two 12k resistors in parallel with the 1k5 for a spot on 1k2.
Whatever way, in the final circuit, they should be mounted as close to the chip as possible.


in the video you see the Proto board. All 3 circuits are there, Signal Gen, Freq to voltage circuit and final Servo control section.
And I did try tying it all together and it did work as I increased and decreased frequency the Servo responded ~pretty much as it should. :o There was a couple issues but like you said there are other things to be finished. Before we discuss this stuff. :P
That depends on what these issues are, so please do tell.
I reckon that a suitable range would be around +/- 300 RPM, so that if the motor runs at 900RPM, the servo is at one extreme and at 1500RPM the servo is at the other extreme (It would never get anywhere near those extremes though).
That equates to 60Hz and 100Hz respectively (so will require minor changes to the test generator).


Well I am off to shopping also, my G/F is taking me to a tool store for me to pick my goodies ;D I like it that way I get just what I want from Santa ;)
'cept no surprise ;)
My SO and my family allways hate my wish lists, since they take them to the dark and unsafe realms of tool stores, electronics stores and such places, but they get so many options that I'm still surprised (well, a little anyway)  ;D


Then off to her house and I will be kept captive for the evening. :P ;)
Ooohhh, you've been a bad boy and have to be cuffed and *Parental Advisory*
Well, enjoy your correction while it lasts.

I'll find what needs your attention next, to get the parts working together as they should.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 21, 2009, 04:22:45 PM
Goodevening Soeren

If you see this before sleep time.

Quote
That depends on what these issues are, so please do tell.

Well when I connected the Freq Gen and the rest of the circuit together, The Servo responded to the increase and decrease of the freq from the Gen circuit. Now this is where the issue part starts.

There is some kind of feedback or oscillation signal showing up on the low part of the signal to the Servo . It is very slight ~.1mv and it's pulse time is anyware from 1 to 15 ms and as you watch it on the scope the Servo reacts to it as a back and forth motion almost like the Jitters.

I not sure if it is caused by the servo load   but I switched the signal from th gen circuit back to the VRX1 and still got the same results but it was not as noticeable It seems like the B+ to the servo is having a conflict with the small signal tick that is showing up.

Sure hope you can see it in the video, it not very clear. If you watch the beginning edge of the low signal you can see the small rise.  :)
[youtube=640,505]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHeHgbtw61U[/youtube]


Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 21, 2009, 04:59:44 PM
Hi Neil,

It's sleep time here, but a couple of quick ones from the top of my head:
It might be the power the servo takes that's causing small changes in the supply, try decoupling the IC's with eg. 1nF to 100nF and perhaps more important, the servo supply as near the servo as possible with 10µF up

Another possibility is that there is a slight jitter in the signal (but again, this is most likely from the servo taking power thereby lowering the supply slightly, which then makes it a command to go the other way, back and forth).

Decoupling is most likely the cure.
(I might see more in the morning, or at least clearer - one more day at the chain gang and I'm off for the holiday... Just the thought freshens me up - Well, tomorrow is gonna be tough, as I have more patients than I regularly see in a day due to me being off for a while).


Btw. If you set the 'scope to positive trigger and adjust the trigger control (on the 'scope), you can get a (more) stable screen.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 21, 2009, 10:22:03 PM
Hi Soeren

Quote
Another possibility is that there is a slight jitter in the signal (but again, this is most likely from the servo taking power thereby lowering the supply slightly, which then makes it a command to go the other way, back and forth).

This is the case I believe as you stated. If I restrict the servo slightly with my finger and the torque increases the small signal time also increases as it is unable to switch the motor direction as easy. And the taking of power is extended before switching the servo to the other direction :P

I was searching for some info on the 3003 servo and came across a few people that were test current draw for this motor. here are there results,Re: Futaba S3003 servo current draw?

Quote
I measured two 3003's (used) with virtually identicle results.

Idle current = 26ma
Unloaded transit current = 105ma
Stall current = 430ma

at 5.1 volts. I have no 6.0 volt packs
with which to test.
I added up to 44uf in parallel with the supply right at the plug going to the Servo. But no luck on dampening it. I am going to buy a couple larger Caps to day up around 100uf or a little bigger as I believe this is where the problem is . AS you have said.

So I will leave it alone, I would hate to cook the works at this point. :o ;D

You know when you said it had been over 3 months of work on this I thought I would fall over :o It is really a wonderful thing that 2 people half way around the world never speaking a spoken word can do this.

When I was 10y/o if you had told me that some day I would be building a electronic circuit with another man thousands of miles away on a key board typing. I would have just had a good laugh :D

Hey I hope your day goes well or went well depending when you see this ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 24, 2009, 06:00:36 AM
Hi Neil,

This is the case I believe as you stated. If I restrict the servo slightly with my finger and the torque increases the small signal time also increases as it is unable to switch the motor direction as easy. And the taking of power is extended before switching the servo to the other direction :P
It just strikes me...
Your very neat wire placement on the breadboard might have something to say, at least in as much as it makes it a little hard to see what goes where.
If you take the supply for the voltage regulator directly from the battery and another wire directly from the battery to the rest of the circuit, both as close to the actual battery/PSU and then the caps where the wires connect on the board, it will probably help if it's the servo introducing surges through the supply.


I was searching for some info on the 3003 servo and came across a few people that were test current draw for this motor. here are there results,Re: Futaba S3003 servo current draw?

Quote
I measured two 3003's (used) with virtually identicle results.

Idle current = 26ma
Unloaded transit current = 105ma
Stall current = 430ma

at 5.1 volts. I have no 6.0 volt packs
with which to test.
I added up to 44uf in parallel with the supply right at the plug going to the Servo. But no luck on dampening it. I am going to buy a couple larger Caps to day up around 100uf or a little bigger as I believe this is where the problem is . AS you have said.
The difference between 44µF and 100µF is not all that much, but try the separate wires as described above.
That power draw alone should not create such issues if wired OK.


You know when you said it had been over 3 months of work on this I thought I would fall over :o It is really a wonderful thing that 2 people half way around the world never speaking a spoken word can do this.

When I was 10y/o if you had told me that some day I would be building a electronic circuit with another man thousands of miles away on a key board typing. I would have just had a good laugh :D
When we were 10 years old, the world was indeed a different place. I was assembling crude circuits that bears no resemblance with todays technology, computers were something that took a giant building and an army of people to feed the monster and they would take weeks to do what a modern PC does in an hour.
Most of the world were alien to a kid and today they run around texting on GSM enabled phones allways within reach... I kind of miss the possibility for getting lost in solitude (and the length of the weekends back then ;D).

Back then I wouldn't have believed much of what's possible today, least of all what I'm able to do with electronics, even if I was a tinkerer even then (fixing bicycles and minor electric work before school age), but where's the flying cars they promised?  ::)

We'll be picked up in an hour by my youngest son, since we're celebrating Xmas with him, his GF and my grandson ;D ;D ;D
In DK, we're doing all the celebrating today (the 24th) and using the 25th for playing with our toys and doing monster R&R.

Merry Christmas to you and you circles - may all your wishes come through, even if you have to wait another day :P
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 28, 2009, 12:03:18 PM
Hi Soeren

Hope your holiday is going well?  
I have not replied in a while as you were needing R&R and I was not wanting to interrupt for a while. I see you have stop by the forum a couple times now, so I guess I wont be rude by dragging you back to this circuit ;D

Today I will be making the the changes on the direct wire setup from the PSU to the Voltage supply to the 7805 and applying the caps as suggested. Then I will update you. how that goes.


Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 30, 2009, 09:39:17 AM
Hi Neil,

Hope your holiday is going well?  
I have not replied in a while as you were needing R&R and I was not wanting to interrupt for a while.
Besides a little trouble with installing a fingerprint reader, it's all good.
No need to not post. Sometimes I like to store up in my head and crunch away in the background and doing electronics is R&R to me ;D


I see you have stop by the forum a couple times now, so I guess I wont be rude by dragging you back to this circuit ;D
It's never rude posting (as long as the content isn't)  :)


Today I will be making the the changes on the direct wire setup from the PSU to the Voltage supply to the 7805 and applying the caps as suggested. Then I will update you. how that goes.
Did you try it?

I noticed a question on the pulse width, which is now edited out, but yes, 1ms to 2ms is the standard, although several manufacturers goes beyond this - if you stay within the 1-2ms you should still get enough travel on a servo, but it's just as easy to get the full travel if it's different. I don't think it will ever see the extremes though, as that would mean severely bad regulation.

The mechanical movement of the servo should probably be translated to a rather small movement of the gas "pedal", to get the finest possible control.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on December 30, 2009, 06:07:05 PM
Hi Soeren
Quote
Did you try it?

Yes but no luck on stopping the ripple or jitterypulses.

Quote
The mechanical movement of the servo should probably be translated to a rather small movement of the gas "pedal", to get the finest possible control.

That's what I was hoping you would say as it appears the this S3003 servo seems to stabilize in a very tight PW.

I am currently tracing down the 2.3 section of the circuit somethings is not flipping and flopping so to speak as it should, when taking a trace of set and reset the reset signal inverts or colapses just with very little freq change. But the set signal is steady as a rock. I'm not sure yet what is going on.

More than likely a wire out of place as you have noticed the wonderful spaghetti board ;D

Nice to hear from you again and soon NEWYEAR, I think Johnny Walker and the Crown Royals and MR. Jack D and the Bubbles may stop in for a few....  ;) :P
UPDATE 

Johnny is coming early like tonight as this PASTA BOWL CIRCUIT IS RIPPIN MY LAST NERVE :o

Just so you know I think we are reaching a point that loose connections and wires everywhere that is becoming almost impossible to get it stable. If I bump anything it can throw it into a state of search for long periods to find it.

I believe I am going to have to attempt and start hard wiring to stabilize the circuits.

What is your thoughts regarding this. as I am wasting tons of time chasing 1 loose connection.   :-\ :P
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on December 31, 2009, 11:56:03 AM
Hi Neil,


Yes but no luck on stopping the ripple or jitterypulses.
OK, perhaps we should save this for when the stability of the rest of the circuit is restored.


Quote
The mechanical movement of the servo should probably be translated to a rather small movement of the gas "pedal", to get the finest possible control.

That's what I was hoping you would say as it appears the this S3003 servo seems to stabilize in a very tight PW.
What do you mean? Doesn't it travel the full 180°?


I am currently tracing down the 2.3 section of the circuit somethings is not flipping and flopping so to speak as it should, when taking a trace of set and reset the reset signal inverts or colapses just with very little freq change. But the set signal is steady as a rock. I'm not sure yet what is going on.

More than likely a wire out of place as you have noticed the wonderful spaghetti board ;D
The signal (input) to 2.3 should be within the range that C1 (TP11) covers, or one of them has to be modified (don't know if that could be the problem?).


Nice to hear from you again and soon NEWYEAR, I think Johnny Walker and the Crown Royals and MR. Jack D and the Bubbles may stop in for a few....  ;) :P
UPDATE 

Johnny is coming early like tonight as this PASTA BOWL CIRCUIT IS RIPPIN MY LAST NERVE :o
Deep breath now (and have a sit down with Johnny et al)  ;D


Just so you know I think we are reaching a point that loose connections and wires everywhere that is becoming almost impossible to get it stable. If I bump anything it can throw it into a state of search for long periods to find it.

I believe I am going to have to attempt and start hard wiring to stabilize the circuits.

What is your thoughts regarding this. as I am wasting tons of time chasing 1 loose connection.   :-\ :P
I think it would be a good idea to move the subcircuits to eg. Vero board, but keep each of the boards separate, to make it easier to trace down hick-ups.
They could all be strapped to a piece of wooden board or MDF.

It is probably a little to early to move things to a real PCB (except for the test generator perhaps).

How do you feel about making a PCB btw.?


Now my GF is shouting "dinner" from the kitchen, so I better leave the keyboard and go pig out on steaks and an evil chocolate cake with stratiatelli ice *yummy* ;D


;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D  Have a Happy New Year! ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on January 01, 2010, 11:29:04 AM
Happy New Year ;D Hope you had a good day!
Mr Soeren

Quote
OK, perhaps we should save this for when the stability of the rest of the circuit is restored.

Yes I think so too! :)


Quote
What do you mean? Doesn't it travel the full 180°?

It Depends on the setting of VR1 of the first circuit, by raising and lowering it changing output voltage between 4v - 7v holds the PW to a set width to the servo, actually the best I get is about 130 degrees.
Quote
The signal (input) to 2.3 should be within the range that C1 (TP11) covers, or one of them has to be modified (don't know if that could be the problem?).
I will look at this matter closer to see if a change needs to be made. :P
Quote
I think it would be a good idea to move the subcircuits to eg. Vero board, but keep each of the boards separate, to make it easier to trace down hick-ups. They could all be strapped to a piece of wooden board or MDF.
I think I am going to do this so some thing are hard wired I'm starting to feel a little like a DOG CHASING IT'S TAIL ;D :P :- ;)
Quote
How do you feel about making a PCB btw.?

I believe that the Generator circuit would be a great first attempt at a PCB. I have been looking for a old MONOCHROME LASER PRINTER. DO you think this type of proses is a good way to start by copy transfer to copper as my resist? :-\
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on January 01, 2010, 09:50:59 PM
Hi Neil,

It Depends on the setting of VR1 of the first circuit, by raising and lowering it changing output voltage between 4v - 7v holds the PW to a set width to the servo, actually the best I get is about 130 degrees.
It just takes a little twiddling with the levels to get the full 180°, but it's better left to the finishing touch.


I think I am going to do this so some thing are hard wired I'm starting to feel a little like a DOG CHASING IT'S TAIL ;D :P :- ;)
Yes, I might have mentioned that I rarely use solderless boards myself. Either I just make a PCB, or if it's a circuit that may need twiddling or where I might change my mind while building, I use the Manhattan Mount method.


I believe that the Generator circuit would be a great first attempt at a PCB. I have been looking for a old MONOCHROME LASER PRINTER. DO you think this type of proses is a good way to start by copy transfer to copper as my resist? :-\
Personally, I use drafting paper as film and use photo-sensitized PCB, but that takes a (timed) UV light to transfer the image.
If you want to try the "iron on" method, you need to print on glossy (photo) ink-jet paper, iron it to a cleaned blank copper clad board and soak it for hours until the paper can be peeled off, while the toner stays on the copper - make sure to set the printer to dark or semi-dark to get a reasonably coverage (pinholes and broken wires are common with iron-on, but the traces are wide enough for this to be a minor problem - if at all).

Test Genny changed slightly for easier tuning while on PCB (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Test_Generator_v1,1.pdf)
The last page is the PCB mirrored if you need this (you don't with the two methods described though).
R3 and R4 are for making a series and/or parallel combination with R1 (if not used, either use a jumper or mount R1 askew to avoid the jumper).
R5 is used if the total range of the trimmer (or potentiometer) needs to be less than what you have.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on January 03, 2010, 09:50:29 AM
Hi Soeren
A quick question.

I like the UV method with being able to expose right away once the mask is set to the photosensitive boards.

What Chemical do you use to finish with after you Mask the board and expose to the UV? ??? ;D

Here is a product thats local to my area and it is in stock to pick up. http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102868 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102868) :P


UPDATE ON CIRCUIT

I am currently remounting the solderless boards to a larger area so keeping them separated and to make sure I can Isolate each Circuit a little, plus when it comes time to actually test with the V8 I think it will be a more stable platform to work with. ;)


Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on January 03, 2010, 06:13:01 PM
Hi Neil,

What Chemical do you use to finish with after you Mask the board and expose to the UV? ??? ;D
The easy way is to buy presensitized board.

Then you need to establish the exposure time.
This can be done by making a strip of PCB, covering most of it with eg. a metal plate and expose it for half a minute, moving the plate to expose a bit more of the PCB, expose for another half a minute and so on until you have 10 "steps", where the first bit will have seen 10 times 30 seconds (5 minutes), the next bit 9 times 30s (4.5 minute) and so on. Allways use the same concentration to develop the PCB and the same distance from the same UV source, for this to hold true each time.

Develope it and etch it. If you have made equal intervals, or have marked it in some way, you will then know the exposure time to use (the one with the shortest total exposure getting the copper completely etched away).

For an UV source, several options exists. A "facial solarium" (whatever they're called) at a distance of about 8" to 10" has worked fine for me (after I got such a beast and didn't know what else to use it for), a truckload of UV-LEDs, a mercury vapour lamp, or whatever you have with a high content of UV
Don't look into UV!!! and don't expose you skin too much to it (it's quite concentrated doses).


To develope the UV exposed PCB, you need sodium hydroxide (NaOH, caustic soda), about 3 to 7 grams into 1 liter of tap water
(should be up to around ½ to 1 ounce a gallon, if my conversion is correct - do check please).
This feels a bit greasy, but it ain't, it's your fingers being etched that gives that feeling - rubber gloves is a very nice thing!
Carefully running a (rubber gloved) finger over the area will help things along.

When the sensitized film is developed completely, it's time to rinse under lots of running water.

Then you etch the board. You can use ferric chloride like the one you linked to (it's a bit expensive though, try a drugstore, or whereever you buy chemical substances), but take a look at this link of several etchants (http://www.k9spud.com/wiki/PCB:Etchants).
Personally, I prefer ammonium persulfate, but it needs to be heated and agitated to work right. Most etchants need to be stirred more or less, but with ferric chloride, it's often enough to float the PCB copper side down -  a couple of handles made from tape in the shape of _/\_ on the other side will help float it.
Just don't get ferric chloride on your clothes or skin - the clothe will be ruined for good with brown stains and it may take a week to get it off your skin. All of etchants, if spilled, should be rinsed off with plenty of water, followed by a regular wash (immediately, or your clothes may have holes where the etchant was, after a wash or two).


I am currently remounting the solderless boards to a larger area so keeping them separated and to make sure I can Isolate each Circuit a little, plus when it comes time to actually test with the V8 I think it will be a more stable platform to work with. ;)
I would recommend mounting on Veroboard/stripboard, as this gives a more rigid construct - if you have a small Veroboard for each section, you can be sure the leads won't pop out (as they're soldered) and you can work on (and test) one block at a time, knowing how the other blocks work.

A solderless board near the vibes of a V8 sounds a bit challenging to me ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on January 05, 2010, 08:47:19 AM
HI Soeren

Thanks for the tips on making the PCB's I will gather the needed things to try my hand at this. ;D

I will be off line for a few days as this switch over to the vero boards will take a day or to to get set up.

I will come and SCREAM HELP as needed! ::)

We're getting pretty close to having a good test set up, it will be fun getting it hooked up to the V8 and having a go of it, and I will make a few videos so you can see your design come to working life..........

 Frankenstein--"ITS ALIVE____ITS ALIVE" as you scream in a very maddening voice...... :o ;D

I will be back in a little while with a few more hopefully stable circuit boards.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on January 06, 2010, 12:07:41 PM
Hi Neil,

We really need to get the jitter out of it, before you mount it on the V8, as otherwise the servo will run itself down faster, as the motor will be constantly running back and forth.

Just yell if the PCB making is acting up.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on January 06, 2010, 09:51:12 PM
Hi Soeren
Quote
We really need to get the jitter out of it, before you mount it on the V8, as otherwise the servo will run itself down faster, as the motor will be constantly running back and forth.

I'll be back long before the V8 ever sees the circuit, I know it is not ready for a test run yet. But I do need to stabilize it as much of the circuitry as possible to achieve seeing where the real problems still hide. ;D

DO you think this type UV bulb would work for PCB exposer? I have one that my Son has. Just thought I would ask what you think about it. LINK BELOW

http://www.petmountain.com/product/reptile-fluorescent-bulbs/504054/zoo-med-reptisun-10.0-uvb-desert-bulb-26-watts.html (http://www.petmountain.com/product/reptile-fluorescent-bulbs/504054/zoo-med-reptisun-10.0-uvb-desert-bulb-26-watts.html)

Zoo Med Reptisun 10.0 UVB Compact Fluorescents are here! Get the quality of Zoo Med’s ReptiSun linear fluorescents with a new threaded base that fits into any standard clamp-lamp, no separate ballast to buy! Helps prevent or reverse metabolic bone disease in captive reptiles.

For all Desert and Basking Reptiles
10% UVB Output
30% UVA Output
Dimensions: 6"Long x 2"Wide
26 Watts = 130Watt Standard Incandescent Bulb.

These energy efficient (26 watt) lamps are available in new 10.0 high UVB output. Provide the UVB your reptiles need with long lasting, cool burning ReptiSun 10.0 Compact Flourescent.

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on January 07, 2010, 02:17:07 PM
Hi Neil,


DO you think this type UV bulb would work for PCB exposer?
I would think so, perhaps with a bit longer exposure time, but it's easy to test.
I would recommend a distance of around 1.5' to get close to equal distance from the lamp to each corner of the PCB material.
The lamp has got the highest amount of light sideways, so don't just hang it down from the ceiling (and down stare into it).

Hold down the printed drafting paper with a glass plate of max. 3 mm thickness (glass filters some of the UV, but i have made numerous PCBs with 2mm to 3mm glass. Printed side against the PCB.
A test strip need not be more than a narrow strip (1/4" should do).

When making the PCB, cut it a bit larger than needed and trim after etching (besides it's easier, it also removes etchant that might have been trapped in the outer edge.

A file or emery paper on the trimmed edges and corners makes the PCB more pleasant to handle.

First day at work today, so I have answered half a month worth of email (well, almost, I saved some for tomorrow ;-/)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on January 17, 2010, 02:54:47 PM
Hi Soeren

Hope this get to you.
Just wanted to update you I have finished 2 section on Vero board and they are working very well.

How nice that wires are not coming out and endless searching. ;D I will be starting on the 2.3v Monday and get it on a vero. I know we may have to change a few things but things are so much more stable I will just un and re solder :P

Hey hope all is well in DK and your home, and the work load is light. Take care my friend. :)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on January 17, 2010, 04:00:30 PM
Hi Neil,

Yes, I still read the board a little these days.

Glad to hear you have progress on the building and just in case the board falls apart, you can reach me on my email at Spambox(at)im26y(dot)com (which I sometimes don't read for days though, unless I expect some email besides the regular junkmail, as I get tonnes of email at work and so, often cannot stand continuing when I get home, but eventually I will get to it).
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on January 25, 2010, 10:50:54 PM
Hi Soeren
Just wanted to let you know I am fighting this last part of the circuit 2.3v. I am hooking something up wrong just haven't found it yet. >:(

Soon as I am able I will give you a shout and see if we can pin this bugger down :P

Here is a picture of the test gen and second section.

And as always thanks for sharing your knowledge. :P
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on January 29, 2010, 11:21:35 AM
Hello Soeren
Well I must say I am reaching a point of madness :o, If I don't resolve this soon I will give in and ask for the 555timer circuit for the last part of the V8 gov?

I am having a terrible time getting this last section done, everytime I build it it up to check TP11 with TP13 to B+ and ground. There is a pulse on the trace before I even check TP11 and I cant find why it is happening I know it's not supposed to be there as we jumped this spot before.

Anyways I still intended to finish the circuit to the final 2.3 v no matter what, it is the principal of the thing :P
 But I also am reaching a point on the genset that I need to control the RPM's and if I don't finish the circuit I will have to apply the hated mechanical gov soon >:( "Which I have wanted to avoid from the very beginning!"

I know you have shared so much with me and I can't thank you enough as most shunned me when I first asked for help here and you were kind enough to ask a few simple questions to see if I could even follow your directions.

Once again I must thank you for your Time, Patients and Knowledge, I am always thankful for the chance to learn and a great instructor! ;D

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on January 31, 2010, 01:23:05 PM
Hi Neil,

[...] everytime I build it it up to check TP11 with TP13 to B+ and ground. There is a pulse on the trace before I even check TP11 and I cant find why it is happening I know it's not supposed to be there as we jumped this spot before.
If TP13 is at B+, then TP11 will be a bit below 3V.
While "Signal" is higher than the potential at TP11, TP12 will be high and nothing further will happen.


Anyways I still intended to finish the circuit to the final 2.3 v no matter what, it is the principal of the thing :P
 But I also am reaching a point on the genset that I need to control the RPM's and if I don't finish the circuit I will have to apply the hated mechanical gov soon >:( "Which I have wanted to avoid from the very beginning!"
Then we better shape up a bit and put our minds together - mine need to be warmed up to the circuit again, it's been sooo long since it was fresh in my mind  ;D

When is your approximate due date?
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 01, 2010, 01:04:21 PM
Hi Soeren

Just wanted you to see exactly where I am working as I try to achieve the rise signal on TP11. MY problem is I am getting continuous  a HIGH to LOW pulsing trace @ TP11 before I even check for the _/ rise signal :P

I am rebuilding as I type this note to you and will update if I fixed it tomorrow.



This is your QUOTE when I was having this issue before.

Quote
My explanation could have been better as well, so here goes:
As long as you touch the wire (TP13) to B+, TP11 is gonna be low, either less than a few hundred mV or around 3V if you have the zener diode in circuit (doesn't matter whether this or that at this moment).
As soon as you remove the wire, you should see TP11 rise like _/¨ (in a few ms, so don't blink) and stop somewhat below B+
When the voltage rise on TP11 reach the same potential as you have set "Signal" to, TP12 should go low.
It's the delay from your release TP11 to TP12 goes low that you should be able to vary with the pot.

How it works:
Lets say you have set "Signal" to 6V.
When the rising voltage on C1 (TP11) reach a shade over 6V, IC1B will go low, since it's non-inverting input is now lower than the inverting input.

It's this low going pulse that will be used for resetting the flip flop consisting of IC3A and IC3b, when we add the next block.

Hope that helps - I assume it's R8 that had you pulling hair - once again, I am sorry for that!

This is where I am trying to get the circuit to operate correctly. I am breaking it back down as you had me do before and take a step at a time to correct this issue . As I am sure it is my wiring that's give me a fit :P

I am about 2 weeks out before needing to set the V8 gov circuit to work :o

I think I am getting a little "Rube Goldber syndrome" between the circuit and my Gasifier;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 01, 2010, 04:02:36 PM
Hi Neil,

Just wanted you to see exactly where I am working as I try to achieve the rise signal on TP11. MY problem is I am getting continuous  a HIGH to LOW pulsing trace @ TP11 before I even check for the _/ rise signal :P
Is IC3 in place or not when this takes place?
What's on "Signal"?


This is your QUOTE when I was having this issue before.
And you have R8 in circuit?


This is where I am trying to get the circuit to operate correctly. I am breaking it back down as you had me do before and take a step at a time to correct this issue . As I am sure it is my wiring that's give me a fit :P
OK, I need to know the conditions around it, to be able to make an informed guess, as the surrounding components, being there or not, will change the behaviour of the circuit.
What goes on the "Signal" input and what do you measure on TP11 etc.
Are your findings now consistent with your previous work?  (Perhaps reread the posts in question).


I am about 2 weeks out before needing to set the V8 gov circuit to work :o

I think I am getting a little "Rube Goldber syndrome" between the circuit and my Gasifier;D
You had it work before, so it should be quite possible to do - a visual inspection of the holes in the solderless board, in order to reveal any loose connections, might be a good idea.
Don't have wires (or component wires) from an output go extremely near any inputs on IC3 and if you have wires from outputs as well as inputs going parallel in close proximity, place them a bit apart.

(If all else fails, I could still make you a program for a µcontroller to replace most of the circuit).
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 01, 2010, 11:08:14 PM
Hello Soeren

Well I am starting to make some headway. and I hope to get IC3 on the vero board tomorrow and running smooth. Crossing my fingers ::)

QUESTION! As I was taking a closer look at what I thought was a LM334 I see now that what I am using is a LM234. That being said is it critical to have the lm334 or can the 234 handle the job? If they wont I will have to order as I only have 2 of the LM234 and no LM334's :-\ Also I found the exact R1 and R2 needed to hold the Thermal levels you spoke of!
I am going to try for 2 more days to finish the 2.3v and make it work on the Vero Boards. If all else fails I may have to ask for the code to run Ucontroller :'( But truly I would love to bring this circuit all the way to a finished board, as we have a lot of time invested here. And your design deserves it's day running that servo and V8 ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 02, 2010, 04:20:27 PM
Hi Neil,

Well I am starting to make some headway. and I hope to get IC3 on the vero board tomorrow and running smooth. Crossing my fingers ::)
It's tough building with crossed fingers  :P
I'm sure you'll get it working!


QUESTION! As I was taking a closer look at what I thought was a LM334 I see now that what I am using is a LM234. That being said is it critical to have the lm334 or can the 234 handle the job? If they wont I will have to order as I only have 2 of the LM234 and no LM334's :-\ Also I found the exact R1 and R2 needed to hold the Thermal levels you spoke of!
LM234 is the same chip, only with closer tolerances (i.e. a better more precise version), so no problem.


I am going to try for 2 more days to finish the 2.3v and make it work on the Vero Boards. If all else fails I may have to ask for the code to run Ucontroller :'( But truly I would love to bring this circuit all the way to a finished board, as we have a lot of time invested here. And your design deserves it's day running that servo and V8 ;D
I fully understand if you're fed up with the circuit and you mustn't think that you have a duty (or whatever) to go on!  Just tell me if that's the case - at least you've gotten some experience in using a 'scope and that will come in handy for other circuits as well.

All that said... You had it running, so I'm sure you can get it going in no time.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 02, 2010, 06:36:26 PM
Hello Soeren

Quote
All that said... You had it running, so I'm sure you can get it going in no time.


You are correct it is running and on Vero boards ;)
 I will mount them on Hard surface after we fine tune to hold that 300 RPM range. I believe that was the number we want as far as throttle responce? :-\

Now we did have a problem with the jittery servo but as I explored I found that it is noise from the TEST GEN CIRCUIT if I applied my finger to R1 of the circuit, it stopped the jitters and also cleaned the signal trace that had shown a little glitch as the test signal started to go high on the scope.
So I don't think we have a big problem there. :-\

But I must ask? When I put my finger in touch with the Test Gen circuit R1 is it acting as a filter cap would work? ::)

Anyways, here is a little clip of it in action, I will wait for you to tell me what should be next. ;D

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQelkFNwE30[/youtube]
 
 
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 03, 2010, 05:43:47 PM
Hi Neil,

You are correct it is running and on Vero boards ;)
Über ;D


I will mount them on Hard surface after we fine tune to hold that 300 RPM range. I believe that was the number we want as far as throttle responce? :-\
I believe it was 1,200RPM = 80Hz (for a 4 stroke 8-banger).


Now we did have a problem with the jittery servo but as I explored I found that it is noise from the TEST GEN CIRCUIT if I applied my finger to R1 of the circuit, it stopped the jitters and also cleaned the signal trace that had shown a little glitch as the test signal started to go high on the scope.
Had it been built on the PCB I made, it would probably not be a big issue, due to the copper pour.
You did use a CMOS version of the 555, right?
You might wanna put 10nF to 100nF from pin 5 to ground anyway, as it decouples the control voltage and hence stabilizes the reference used within the 555 to define the switching thresholds.
A 100nF cap from pin 8 to pin 1 (as close to the pins as possible) won't hurt either.
Does the jitter go away or increase, when you retract any interfering body parts at least 1' from the circuit?
 
What frequency range does it cover as it stands?
It should be a range centered around 80Hz.
Set the pot to midpoint. If the frequency is lower, increase C1 with the same amount as the deviation (roughly) and v.v.

If the center of the pot gives 70Hz with a cap of 22nF you could use:
22nF*70/80 = 19.25nF instead (by adding eg. 15n and 4n7 in parallel or 18n and 1n2).


But I must ask? When I put my finger in touch with the Test Gen circuit R1 is it acting as a filter cap would work? ::)
Not easy to see from that distance, but either it's because you're working as a cap to ground, or the added loading of the R1/C1 node - I bet it changes the frequency a bit as well.


I will wait for you to tell me what should be next. ;D
That would be to get the frequency to ~80Hz mid-band and stabilizing it will do no harm either.
And... Decide a (tentative) design goal for the upper and lower RPM tolerance where you want the servo to be at the ends of its travel.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 04, 2010, 02:16:46 PM
Hi Soeren

Quote
I will mount them on Hard surface after we fine tune to hold that 300 RPM range. I believe that was the number we want as far as throttle responce?

I believe it was 1,200RPM = 80Hz (for a 4 stroke 8-banger).

The 300 RPM I mentioned in this quote was referring to the upper and lower limit of the servo swing 900 to 1500 RPM;D Hope that cleared up what I was trying to say ??? :)


Quote
What frequency range does it cover as it stands?

As it stands it swings from 17.5mS to 8.5mS I believe 57.1Hz to 117.6Hz. This is before doing any stabilising.

After adding the caps it now swings 8mS to 15mS  125Hz to 66.7Hz

Quote
You did use a CMOS version of the 555, right?
Well imagine you asking that question and after looking at the 555 it is a NE555 which I don't think is CMOS "I do have a LM555 that was right in the same container.

After I added the Caps to pin 5 to GRD and pins 8to1 it took all jitter out of the circuit :P
Do you think I should switch them the LM for the NE now that the circuit is stable?:-\

I am going to have a close look at the datasheets on these Timers now that you have taught me something "new" again as I didn't know there was a big difference :o :-[

Well Soeren I am feeling very good about this as the circuit appears to be stable and I have a very close 12.5 mS reading to mid range on VR1  I may have to bump it a couple more nf.   But it is very close now ;D



I'll check later to see if you get a chance to read this.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 04, 2010, 06:01:07 PM
Hi Neil,

The 300 RPM I mentioned in this quote was referring to the upper and lower limit of the servo swing 900 to 1500 RPM;D Hope that cleared up what I was trying to say ??? :)
Of course, my bad for not rereading 200+ posts every few days ;D
(Internet time is a strange phenomenon - a week away from a circuit and I need to review it all - my only excuse is that I'm juggling at least a handfull of projects at any time and they seldom gains from getting mixed up  :D)


As it stands it swings from 17.5mS to 8.5mS I believe 57.1Hz to 117.6Hz. This is before doing any stabilising.

After adding the caps it now swings 8mS to 15mS  125Hz to 66.7Hz
That equates to 1000 RPM to 1875 RPM
Making C1 20% larger should put 1200 RPM at around the middle of that - if C1 is 22n now, a 4n7 in parallel will be fairly close and will get you the +/- 300 RPM range (plus some, but it's OK for testing).


Quote
You did use a CMOS version of the 555, right?
Well imagine you asking that question and after looking at the 555 it is a NE555 which I don't think is CMOS "I do have a LM555 that was right in the same container.

After I added the Caps to pin 5 to GRD and pins 8to1 it took all jitter out of the circuit :P
Do you think I should switch them the LM for the NE now that the circuit is stable?:-\
Ahaa, I thought it smelled a bit that way from your last post, but I said to myself "No it cannot be, 'cause I explicitly wrote CMOS555 and Neil's too carefull to do such horrible stuff"  :P ;) ;D

Seriously...
The big difference is that the "good" old 555 (i.e. LM555, NE555, UA555 and whatever) generates transients on the power line when the output is shifting and it doesn't go to the rails either.
The CMOS versions (i.e. LM555C, ICL555, CMOS555 and several other names), although not as current capable, has got outputs that does go to the rails and it doesn't make horrible transients on the power line.
It's the shifting transients that has made the circuit curl a bit.

Depending on the type of circuit, transients may or may not matter and when you use the old 555, you decouple the control voltage pin (pin 5) by a cap - 100nF is usually slabbed on by poor "designers" as a cure all, but often something as low as 1nF or 10nF is more than adequate, at other times you need to go higher than 100nF - it all depends on the circuit, the impedance of the supply lines and how sensitive timing is.
Over time, you get a gut feeling for selecting the cap, but until then, just start low and increase until stability shows (if nothing else is wrong of course).


I am going to have a close look at the datasheets on these Timers now that you have taught me something "new" again as I didn't know there was a big difference :o :-[
The big difference is whether you use CMOS or not (easily seen from the price tag, as the CMOS versions are 3..5 times as expensive IIRC).
But... There's minor differences between several of them, My buddy Tony has got a page that you could go through when you need to kill some time, it's a very informative 555 Tutorial (http://www.sentex.ca/~mec1995/gadgets/555/555.html) that will help you way more than studying datasheets to begin with.

And if you feel up to learning more, there's other tutorials (and bunches of circuits, including one I made) at the Electronics Page (http://www.sentex.ca/~mec1995/circ/circuits.htm)


Well Soeren I am feeling very good about this as the circuit appears to be stable and I have a very close 12.5 mS reading to mid range on VR1  I may have to bump it a couple more nf.   But it is very close now ;D
As long as you can dial in the needed range, there's no real need to change it any further. When this is done, you'll probably need to change it for your next experiments anyway.


I'll check later to see if you get a chance to read this.
Well, I did ;D

When you can dial in 900/1500 RPM, please tell me what output voltage you have on the "Signal" pin at 900, 1200 and 1500 RPM and what components in the first part that is different from the schematic.

I'll start gathering it all into one file then and you can note any further changes you made (might take a few iterations to cover for missing light and greasy glasses ;)), so that we can get the schematics up to date and get a real PCB layout ready for it.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 04, 2010, 11:19:19 PM
Hi Soeren
OH yes it is Über at least for me! I am very happy to reach this point ;D :P
And nearing the point of making my first PCB's  8)

Now I hope I used the word " Über " in it's correct context as being a Great or a Superior moment? :P

OKay here are the results.
Using a DMM it made the servo move very slightly as I checked the voltage and repeated it for each measurement.
 I was slightly confused when asking for the voltages at the signal so I went back and measured from the signal IN on ver2.3 and signal OUT of ver 2.3 they are below in a picture.

I hope that this is the correct readings that you need?

Quote
As I sweep VR1 fully on the Test Gen Circuit the Servo is giving me ~80'degree movement back and forth.
Quote
Now that the curl is gone on the signal and jitters have stopped the 7805 VR has cooled down and I am not sure it even needs a heat sink :-\

Below are the revisions made to first part of circuit "Revisions to V8SG_4.0 PDF"
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 06, 2010, 07:04:51 PM
Hi Neil,

Now I hope I used the word " Über " in it's correct context as being a Great or a Superior moment? :P
You've got it!


I hope that this is the correct readings that you need?
Precisely what I asked for :)


Quote
As I sweep VR1 fully on the Test Gen Circuit the Servo is giving me ~80'degree movement back and forth.
That's what we're gonna fix now.


Quote
Now that the curl is gone on the signal and jitters have stopped the 7805 VR has cooled down and I am not sure it even needs a heat sink :-\
At least it doesn't do any damage.


Below are the revisions made to first part of circuit "Revisions to V8SG_4.0 PDF"
I jotted them down for a brain grind before you edited the post, but I was so sleepy that I kept falling asleep, wake up and trying to gather enough momentum to get to bed, falling asleep before that happened (etc. about 5 times until it was around 9 a.m. - too bad I slept with half a glass of Coke in my hand - it sure spreads little drops like a frag when you drop it  :().

It is the first numbers you wrote (from Signal in SV1 of the schematic that's got the servo in the other end - lets call it Schematic 2 and the other, who connects with the Hall is then Schematic 1).


I would like you to make a some more measurements here:
If you take the same readings with VR1 (in Schematic 1) turned fully CW and CCW, or as far in each direction that will still give a response within ~1V to ~9V (still for 900, 1200 and 1500 RPM), perhaps a more balanced voltage deviation can be found out (I'll do some math on the readings) and maybe the response of the rest of the circuit can be made more... Well, responsive.

And what about the changed component values in Schematic 2 so far?
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 06, 2010, 11:11:43 PM
Hello Soeren
Quote
too bad I slept with half a glass of Coke in my hand - it sure spreads little drops like a frag when you drop it.
Hope it was on tile and not carpet, makes it a tad bit easier to clean up :P

You are in the medical Field and I thought that REST was one of the orders from the DR. ???

The way it sound your job keeps you at full speed most of the time :( I hope you have a vacation soon ;)

Quote
as far in each direction that will still give a response within ~1V to ~9V

Well the readings are in and this is the result. First off the voltage level did drop below 1v down to .06v so I dialed VR1 on schematic 1 to start at ~1v.

Also are my Time/div correct?---(900=16.7mS) (1200=12.5mS) (1500=10mS)

The reason I ask is it would seem that the TIME would be linear but it didn't come out that way. But the voltage reading were about a 1/2 volt each as the RPM was changed and almost 1 full volt each as VR1 was fully turned the other way.

Also I wanted to make sure you were aware that I made a big mistake when I put the final resistor R8 in Schematic 1, I put a 47k ohm instead of the 470k what a blunder on my part :-[

[email protected]=1.02v
[email protected]=1.54v
[email protected]=1.98v

[email protected]=3.90v
[email protected]=5.15v
[email protected]=6.32

As Far as changes to schematic 2 they are below in a jpg.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 07, 2010, 05:39:59 PM
Hi Neil,

Hope it was on tile and not carpet, makes it a tad bit easier to clean up :P
Wooden planks - at least the glass didn't shatter  :)


You are in the medical Field and I thought that REST was one of the orders from the DR. ???

The way it sound your job keeps you at full speed most of the time :( I hope you have a vacation soon ;)
Rest is only for patients, staff is supposed to run full speed plus  ::)


Well the readings are in and this is the result. First off the voltage level did drop below 1v down to .06v so I dialed VR1 on schematic 1 to start at ~1v.

Also are my Time/div correct?---(900=16.7mS) (1200=12.5mS) (1500=10mS)
Yes.
For a four stroker, number of ignitions are 1 every second revolution times number of cylinders: (RPM/60)*(8/2) = RPM/15 [Hz]
To get the time for each period, take the reciprocal value of the frequency: 15/RPM


The reason I ask is it would seem that the TIME would be linear but it didn't come out that way. But the voltage reading were about a 1/2 volt each as the RPM was changed and almost 1 full volt each as VR1 was fully turned the other way.
Not quite sure what you mean, but the voltage at "Signal" is not entirely linear it seems, but read on.


Also I wanted to make sure you were aware that I made a big mistake when I put the final resistor R8 in Schematic 1, I put a 47k ohm instead of the 470k what a blunder on my part :-[
What you're saying is, that R8 is 470k in your working circuit, or?


[email protected]=1.02v
[email protected]=1.54v
[email protected]=1.98v
[...]
Thanks, lets stick to the original values.


As Far as changes to schematic 2 they are below in a jpg.
The LM334, I'm not gonna change, as the 334 would do fine and the one you used is just a version with tighter tolerances. As I don't know what heatsink you used (and probably haven't got a CAD symbol for it, I didn't add it to the schematic.

Apart from that, I have now merged both the schematics into this (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/V8_Governor_Complete_V1,0_SCH.pdf) one.
Please review all component values and tell me what needs to be changed.

What is now C7 and D3 (formerly C1 and D4) is changed to new values. use them and adjust VR1 to get a 170° to 180° response. Then, tell me how it went.

Later, when installing it, it doesn't matter if 1200 RPM is a *little* off the middle position, just check with a rev. counter that it settles at 1200 RPM and adjust the physical position of the servo/connection trim if not.
When we reach that point, you need to find out the physical travel of the gas linkage at +/- 300 RPM, to find out how far from the center of the servo horn the link should be mounted.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 09, 2010, 01:27:21 AM
Hello Mr Soeren
Quote
What you're saying is, that R8 is 470k in your working circuit
Correct!

Well here is what happend after the changes ::) ::)

I made the changes that you requested, then powered the circuit and had no responce when sweeping VR1 on ether the Gen test circuit or Schematic 1.  So the only way I could fix this issue was to remove R5 100k that was in series with Vr1 on schematic 1. I hope that this action was okay?

 In the original schematic 1 the value of VR1 and R5 together were a total of ~100k with VR1 max. :-\ If this action was okay I will pick up a couple 50k VR's  and put another 50k in series to correct only having a 100k VR1 in the circuit now.

After removing R5 I was able to adjust Vr1 on schematic 1 to allow the Gen Test Vr1 sweep the servo ~0-135 degrees but that was the limit.

I am attaching a video so you can see the other issue I'm having. When the Servo is moving from 0-100degrees it moves at full speed, but the last 35degrees it slows down and takes about 2 seconds to settle at 135. I wasn't sure of the cause so I just stopped.

So take a look at the video hope you can see what I am talking about.  

[youtube=640,505]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr-U-JZU_n0[/youtube]

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 09, 2010, 12:17:34 PM
Hi Neil,

Well here is what happend after the changes ::) ::)

I made the changes that you requested, then powered the circuit and had no responce when sweeping VR1 on ether the Gen test circuit or Schematic 1.  So the only way I could fix this issue was to remove R5 100k that was in series with Vr1 on schematic 1. I hope that this action was okay?

 In the original schematic 1 the value of VR1 and R5 together were a total of ~100k with VR1 max. :-\ If this action was okay I will pick up a couple 50k VR's  and put another 50k in series to correct only having a 100k VR1 in the circuit now.
It's quite OK.
The reason for a regular resistor in series with a variable is twofold. First, it keep one from turning the pot to close to 0 Ohm (overloading the output of the gate) and second, it allows a smaller trimmer, which then gives a better resolution.

If you can adjust it well enough with the 100k trimmer, it's quite OK to keep it. Else, measure (needs removal from the circuit) or eyeball the resistance, and put a resistor of lower value plus a trimmer about twice the difference.
Eg. if the trimmer is around 1/3 (i.e. 33k). Replacing it with a resistor of 22k in series with a trimmer of 22k (mid position will then be around 33k). a 27k resistor could be used with a 10k trimmer for even finer control.


After removing R5 I was able to adjust Vr1 on schematic 1 to allow the Gen Test Vr1 sweep the servo ~0-135 degrees but that was the limit.

I am attaching a video so you can see the other issue I'm having. When the Servo is moving from 0-100degrees it moves at full speed, but the last 35degrees it slows down and takes about 2 seconds to settle at 135. I wasn't sure of the cause so I just stopped.
It looks strange. You seem to turn it in intervals, what happens if you go from min to max in a single short turn.
How does the output look on the 'scope while that happens?
What are the min./max. timing limits of the servo pulse?

Btw. The test generator would probably be easier to use with a regular potentiometer and you could make a dial for it (eg. on an angled scrap of aluminum).
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 09, 2010, 02:35:59 PM
Hello Mr Soeren

Quote
It looks strange. You seem to turn it in intervals, what happens if you go from min to max in a single short turn.
Actually if you watch close the last VR1 turn in the video and look at the servo and VR1 turn closely I am at full turn, way before the servo's movement ends if 2 seconds is way before ::). Actually I can count it's time here as being around 2 seconds until it stops.

Quote
How does the output look on the 'scope while that happens?
Actually the servo pulse high time swings from ~1.7mS - 2.2mS. You can see the Servo High Pulse slow as it is reaching it's minimum high time.

It almost gives me the impression that a CAP is discharging down slowly through a resistor making the action described in the last 2 seconds :-\ I hope you can understand what I am describing?

Would reducing the value of C6or R9 change servo's pulse to bottom out faster? "Just trying to learn"

I will add the regular resistor and small trimmer before testing on the engine :P

Actually I think we are very close  to a great working proto type.

 In MHO the current servo angle sweep would be enough to control 900 - 1500 RPM. I just wasn't sure how to clear that slow movement right  at the  end of the servo's movement and seeing you are the master mind behind this project, I thought I should share this last little glitch :P
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 09, 2010, 03:33:03 PM
Hi Neil,

Actually if you watch close the last VR1 turn in the video and look at the servo and VR1 turn closely I am at full turn, way before the servo's movement ends if 2 seconds is way before ::). Actually I can count it's time here as being around 2 seconds until it stops.
OK.


Actually the servo pulse high time swings from ~1.7mS - 2.2mS. You can see the Servo High Pulse slow as it is reaching it's minimum high time.
Is there a close correlation between TP4 and the servo pulse (measured with both traces of the 'scope)?
And how does TP5 look at either extreme (900/1500)?


It almost gives me the impression that a CAP is discharging down slowly through a resistor making the action described in the last 2 seconds :-\ I hope you can understand what I am describing?

Would reducing the value of C6or R9 change servo's pulse to bottom out faster? "Just trying to learn"
That sounds highly unlikely.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 09, 2010, 07:04:34 PM
Hello Soeren

Please excuse me if I pronounced your name incorrectly on the Video's :P

Okay here we go, hope the video's help as I am having a hard time explaining what is happening with my limited know how and I know when I am explaining things I confuse you because I do not know all correct terms I am sorry :'(

Checking of TP4
I was very surprised to see the servo act correctly after I attached the scope probe to TP4. When I did this the servo moved a little and I had to turn VR1 of SCHEMATIC1 almost to 0 ohms, Then the servo swing started to act normal and had no delays when going back and forth between 900 -1500. So like I the said in the video I hope that it helps Identify the problem ???

Checking of TP5
Now I hooked the scope probe to TP5 and tried to sweep the TEST GEN, the servo was trapped in a small swing movement less than 90 degrees I adjusted VR1 schematic1 to just below half it's range and the the servo would give me 0-135 movement again. BUTthe delay was once again present as before. IF you watch the 2nd video very close you can see the slow section of the pulse width.

Please make sure your glasses are on ;D

Glasses are a good thing, as I have learned from this project because wrong componets keep showing up in the circuit, I don't know how it happens I try to keep it at a minimum of 10 or 20 at a time :o:P ::)

It appears that the scope is having some kind of effect on the circuit at both TP's ???

Well have a look at the vid's Maybe you will see the clue you need :-\
[youtube=640,505]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYqDlLeuviU[/youtube]
[youtube=640,505]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfh4mShlmCw[/youtube]
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 09, 2010, 08:32:00 PM
Hi Neil,


A quick and short post before sleeping:
The videos made me see what I should have previously, at least when you asked about R9/C6.
C6 doesn't have a discharge path all the way, so when you added the scope (~1MOhm), it was able to discharge further.
If you try adding a resistor of 1MOhm (or around 2MOhm to lessen the load) in parallel with C6, I think you'll have the delay cured - the exact potentials at TP4 can be raised by lowering the value of R9 somewhat if needed.

I'll review the videos tomorrow to see if I can discover something else.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 09, 2010, 10:52:48 PM
Good day Mr. Soeren

Well I made the change by adding a 1MEG ohm resistor in Parallel with C6, which fixed the delay ;)

But the servo was trapped again and would not hardly move by adjusting the VR1. I tried decreasing R9 but no improvement so I put the 470k back in the circuit.  So I was looking at the completed schematic and in your last change you had increased C7 to 68n so I tried increasing it to 100n and the circuit started to act correctly, I hope this action won't damage the circuit.

I now have VR1 on schematic1 set to a little under 50k  about half it's max and when the Gen Test is set to 1200RPM the VR1 on that Circuit is also centered . So Everything is ~mid- range and I have no delay from 900 - 1500 :P
Below is the JPG of the Changes.

So did I  do any harm by adding the 100n  cap ??? Hope not I shut it off just encase ::)

I'll check in the morning as I am heading to sleep now.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 10, 2010, 10:42:13 AM
Hi Neil,

Well I made the change by adding a 1MEG ohm resistor in Parallel with C6, which fixed the delay ;)

But the servo was trapped again and would not hardly move by adjusting the VR1.
Now I'm a bit curious as to how you knew that the 1M fixed it then?   :P ;D


I tried decreasing R9 but no improvement so I put the 470k back in the circuit.  So I was looking at the completed schematic and in your last change you had increased C7 to 68n so I tried increasing it to 100n and the circuit started to act correctly, I hope this action won't damage the circuit.
Great initiative.
Increasing the cap makes it take longer to reach a certain voltage, so it matches better the lower voltage at TP4 caused by the resistive divider of 470k and 1M.
Changing one comparator input means you have to change the other proportionally, to get the same effect.


I now have VR1 on schematic1 set to a little under 50k  about half it's max and when the Gen Test is set to 1200RPM the VR1 on that Circuit is also centered . So Everything is ~mid- range and I have no delay from 900 - 1500 :P
Below is the JPG of the Changes.
I'll update and post in a few minutes.


So did I  do any harm by adding the 100n  cap ??? Hope not I shut it off just encase ::)
Not at all, as described above.

Was that the last changes? Or, in other words, is is working as intended now?
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 10, 2010, 10:48:19 AM
Hi Neil,

Here is the modified schematic (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/V8_Governor_Complete_V1,1_SCH.pdf)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 10, 2010, 11:45:31 AM
Hello Soeren

Thanks for the updated Schematic ;D

Quote
Now I'm a bit curious as to how you knew that the 1M fixed it then?

Actually after placing the 1meg in, I powered the circuit up. As soon as the power came on the servo moved from 0 to 135 degrees with no hesitation, so I assumed the delay was fixed :P :D Then trying to swing the RPM's w/VR1 the servo would barely move. :o
Quote
Increasing the cap makes it take longer to reach a certain voltage, so it matches better the lower voltage at TP4 caused by the resistive divider of 470k and 1M.
Changing one comparator input means you have to change the other proportionally, to get the same effect.
Thank you for that info, as it helps me to understand why the circuit corrected after raising the cap value. :)

Quote
Or, in other words, it is working as intended now?
Correct! ;D Now were having fun :P

I will mount the Vero Boards to a hard surface over the next day or so.
So I have a good stable platform while working around the Engine. I wish it would warm up so I can go out and play coldest winter in 35 years here in Florida :'(

Any other info I should know before attempting this testing of the " SOEREN 1200 dISCRETE COMPONET GOVERNOR"?

"The SOEREN 1200" kinda has a nice ring to it :P ;D

OH yes almost forgot to ask, what value in-line fuse should I use when hooking it to the engine voltage supply?
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 10, 2010, 05:29:23 PM
Hi Neil,

Actually after placing the 1meg in, I powered the circuit up. As soon as the power came on the servo moved from 0 to 135 degrees with no hesitation, so I assumed the delay was fixed :P :D Then trying to swing the RPM's w/VR1 the servo would barely move. :o
Ah, I see.


Correct! ;D Now were having fun :P
Didn't we before?  ::)
;D


I will mount the Vero Boards to a hard surface over the next day or so.
So I have a good stable platform while working around the Engine. I wish it would warm up so I can go out and play coldest winter in 35 years here in Florida :'(
Oh, life is hard:
(http://servlet.dmi.dk/rejsevejr/servlet/RejseImageServlet?city=200001227)
To put things in perspective: Temperatures in DK (http://that.homepage.dk/Vejr/)
My GF lives in Copenhagen (the upper pic), I live in Kongens Lyngby (and the last one is where our summer cabin is).
So excuse me for not taking you all too serious here ;D


Any other info I should know before attempting this testing of the " SOEREN 1200 dISCRETE COMPONET GOVERNOR"?

"The SOEREN 1200" kinda has a nice ring to it :P ;D
Sounds like a sixties commercial for Snake Oil ;D
Besides, you have been pulling hair and working hard for "2 years", so let's rather call it "The Neil V8 9-10"  (As seen on YouTube - end of infomercial).


OH yes almost forgot to ask, what value in-line fuse should I use when hooking it to the engine voltage supply?
Not quite sure what your servo takes, but I'd think 1A (make it a Slo-Blo to counter start surges from the servo motor) should be appropriate.

I have been playing around some with the PCB, but it's a bit of a puzzle to get it nice and proper, so I won't get it finished today.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 10, 2010, 08:34:04 PM
Hi Neil,

Please take a look at this (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/V8_Governor_Complete_V1,2.pdf) and tell me if you think you're up for it. It's a bit crowded, but if that's a problem, I could make it into two smaller PCB's to stack.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 11, 2010, 09:05:49 AM
Hi Soeren

Hey that is great ;D  I think I will have a go at this size first as I like it being compact. :P

I am mounting the vero's today and maybe test the circuit the beginning next week my "GF" is requesting my full attention this weekend you know how that happens :P ;D

I will be updating, as progress is made, or problems arise :o

OH YES!!! anything below 21c is just to cold for me.......BRRRRRRRR :D Actually this is a good weekend to be inside where  I am located it will be high's 12c with rain mixed kind of just miserable.
I am way north of Miami, we don't always enjoy those trade wind breezes up from the Caribbean :D
HECK I DONT EVEN KNOW HOW TO SPELL  -- Care a bee an! :P

Tak for lån Soeren
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 11, 2010, 11:58:21 AM
Hello Soeren

Just a quick question, is using all 1/4 or 1/8 watt resistors okay to use on the PCB? I dont beleive it was ever mentioned that high watt resistors were needed :-\

Just asking to help with space :P
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 11, 2010, 02:00:40 PM
Hi Neil,

Just a quick question, is using all 1/4 or 1/8 watt resistors okay to use on the PCB? I dont beleive it was ever mentioned that high watt resistors were needed :-\
Most can be 1/16W if needs be.
Assuming 14V max over any resistor (most will have far less), the formula is: U^2/P = 14^2 / 1/16 = 16*14^2 = 3,136 Ohm.
Meaning that any resistor of at least 3k136 can be 1/16W
The limit for 1/8W would thus be 8*14^2 = 1k569
And 1/4W is 4*14^2 = 784 Ohm

R6, might seem to be a candidate for 1/4W, but 1/8W will be quite sufficient, as it won't see 14V for more than the first few ignition pulses at start up.

R11 sees only a small voltage from IC3, so no problem in using 1/8W or 1/16W there.

R22 should be 1/4W.

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 11, 2010, 08:40:43 PM
Hi Soeren

Thanks for the info on the R's

Below is a picture of boards mounted and ready for testing. I have to do some linkage work, but it wont be long now and VROOM, VROOM , VROOM :P
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 13, 2010, 03:42:39 AM
Hi Neil,

Below is a picture of boards mounted and ready for testing.
You have way too much Vero board  ;D


[...] it wont be long now and VROOM, VROOM , VROOM :P
Oh, you think there's still a lot of jitter?
I hope it'll be more like VROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...  ;)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 13, 2010, 12:30:37 PM
Hi Soeren
Quote
You have way too much Vero board!
Do you Think I should cut it down 1 or 2 mm to make it look just right ???  :D

I think I will put the PICF675P chip Gov onthe last 50mm of the Vero and run the head to head against each other 8) :D

Quote
I hope it'll be more like VROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

A steady 1200 would be VRPERFECT! ;)

Hey I just bought a pickit2 and am learning how program with it. I am working a circuit that uses a pic12f683 and I already have the firmware so it will be good to learn the hardware side with it.

Any ways I was going to ask you if after I get a little more know how on that Pickit2 and get the NEIL V8-9-10 :D on the PCB if I could squeeez that little bit of code out of you that was suggested  for that PICF675P chip Gov. Now that I took the hard way and actually built the discrete set up, I feel better about trying the easier road with the PIC :P on later projects.

Thought I would run that past you, not that I haven't been Squeeeeeeeezing for the last 4 and 1/2 months ::)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 13, 2010, 03:39:40 PM
Hi Neil,


Do you Think I should cut it down 1 or 2 mm to make it look just right ???  :D
Haha, no, I was merely thinking on how expensive Vero Board is in DK (which is why i went to lengths to cram everything together in my youth - and still is by habit :)).

Besides, the larger the PCB, the more support it needs to avoid a premature death, especially if mounted on an engine.
The classic mounting with a hole in each corner is particularly bad, partly because people thing it's then completely supported and partly because it really ain't - observing a PCB on a "vibrating table" (I lack the proper English term) is very informative in how good support is done (you should allways make your support in "triangles" if your PCB can be bend down in the middle, as they're rigid, while "squares" are bad on anything over a certain size, depending on the thickness of the carrier material).
The smaller/the thicker the PCB, the more rigid it is of course.


I think I will put the PICF675P chip Gov onthe last 50mm of the Vero and run the head to head against each other 8) :D
Great!


Hey I just bought a pickit2 and am learning how program with it. I am working a circuit that uses a pic12f683 and I already have the firmware so it will be good to learn the hardware side with it.

Any ways I was going to ask you if after I get a little more know how on that Pickit2 and get the NEIL V8-9-10 :D on the PCB if I could squeeez that little bit of code out of you that was suggested  for that PICF675P chip Gov. Now that I took the hard way and actually built the discrete set up, I feel better about trying the easier road with the PIC :P on later projects.
I just saw that you were asking about the '683.
Now do you have '683 chips, '675s or don't you have any yet?

I can change the circuit to a '683 in no time (I allready added the ICSP connector and have moved the used pins to avoid clashes) and whether I compile for one controller or the other is just a matter of selecting it from a drop-down list.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 13, 2010, 05:00:11 PM
Hi Soeren
Quote
I just saw that you were asking about the '683.
Now do you have '683 chips, '675s or don't you have any yet?

No not yet I am ordering tomorrow and so I will get them ~Wensday. The other circuit I am starting calls for the 683
A buddy of mine ask me to build it for a swimming pool area to put behind a watterfall w/ some High power RBG led's. I thought it would be good to learn using the Pickit2 and my test boards, bread, proto, practice, ECT............. wish they would standardize this issue ;)

Any ways here is a link to it.http://picprojects.org.uk/projects/bigmosfetrgb/ (http://picprojects.org.uk/projects/bigmosfetrgb/) This what I'm up to, making toys for Christmas :P HO HO HO ::)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 13, 2010, 08:32:14 PM
Hi Neil,


No not yet I am ordering tomorrow and so I will get them ~Wensday. The other circuit I am starting calls for the 683
There's also this on the download page:
"V2 HEX file ready to program for 12F629/675"


Any ways here is a link to it.http://picprojects.org.uk/projects/bigmosfetrgb/ (http://picprojects.org.uk/projects/bigmosfetrgb/) This what I'm up to, making toys for Christmas :P HO HO HO ::)
At least for starters, I'd recommend using just one of the 8 pin PICs and perhaps a larger one like 16F628 for when the smaller ones just haven't got enough I/O.
Better learn one type reasonable well before spreading out, to avoid the possible confusions over their dissimilarities in the initial phase.

Whichever you go for, please tell me, so I can make it for the same type.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 14, 2010, 10:46:17 PM
Hi Soren

I ordered the 675's today so if you want to work it up that's the chip I am going to learn with ;D
I also grabbed the Hex file today, so it's in my program folder. ;)

Thanks for letting me know I didn't see that! ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 15, 2010, 03:05:10 PM
I got all the componets ordered today, and bought a old laser printer to make my transfers.
 
I printed out a couple copies of the V8 Gov and I had to get the 1:1 factor set, after that it came out great. I put a 4093 on it and the pins were right on the money. ;)

I didn't have any Photo sensitive board yet, so I am going to try the Iron on method w/ glossy paper and see what results I can get.
 
I ordered a few of the 16f628A'S today also as I think you are right that maybe I should learn on a chip that has a little more to give then the 12f's :P
Just have to wait for the stuff to get here!



Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Daanii on February 15, 2010, 04:38:59 PM
Having kept an eye on this thread since the beginning, I'm glad to see the governor getting close to completion. Soren's hardware solution looks like a good one -- simple and powerful.

Using a microcontroller as an alternative for part of the circuit makes sense too. The PICs work for that. But I like the Arduino and the AVR line of chips. You may want to take a look at those. Very easy to program yet powerful enough for projects.

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 15, 2010, 05:34:03 PM
Hi Neil,


I printed out a couple copies of the V8 Gov and I had to get the 1:1 factor set, after that it came out great. I put a 4093 on it and the pins were right on the money. ;)
Then this PCB (http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/V8gov_m_PIC_v2_ICSP+12F675.pdf) should be a piece of cake to do  ;D


I didn't have any Photo sensitive board yet, so I am going to try the Iron on method w/ glossy paper and see what results I can get.
The PIC circuit shouldn't be a problem for that method and If you go with that, there's no real reason to make a PCB for the discrete build.

 
I ordered a few of the 16f628A'S today also as I think you are right that maybe I should learn on a chip that has a little more to give then the 12f's :P
If you need X-tal timing accuracy and a couple of inputs and outputs, the more pins on the '628 quickly comes into play.


Just have to wait for the stuff to get here!
Ah, the joy of expecting - Before you know, that baby has grown all mature and you probably forget to talk him/her on a daily basis  ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 15, 2010, 06:03:09 PM
Hi Daanii,

You may want to take a look at those. Very easy to program yet powerful enough for projects.
I think that you'll agree, that learning one core at a time is the best way, especially for a first time intro?

The PICs are just as easy to program (and code, if that's what you meant) as AVR and other cores based on the ancient 8080. Each time you meet a new core, you have to read up a bit, but if you get the underlying principles and are familiar with the differences of the Harvard and the von Neumann architectures (probably a lack of this is what is feeding much of the AVR ctr. PIC debate), as well as the main principles of interfacing, you can pick up the new stuff pretty quickly. That is, if you developed a sound understanding of the logic way of thinking the first time 'round.

I hope we can avoid the "religious" debates over which hammer is best on a 3" nail - you don't see carpenters argue over oak, fir, hickory etc. as they're all materials which all carpenters should know and be able to work with, although they probably each have their favourites (mine are pokkenholz and ebony, but I'm not a carpenter, so I don't have to care about the price tag :)).
When the nail is buried deep in the piece of wood it holds in place, who cares what hammer drove them.

In short.., It's just nail 'em and forget 'em  ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Daanii on February 15, 2010, 08:36:25 PM
Your point is well taken. I retract my suggestion.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 16, 2010, 09:45:50 PM
Hello Soren
Well made my first attempt at making a PCB with the Laser print to Iron on process :o

I learned a lot as to how clean it has to be and soak time to allow the paper to release.

For a first attempt I was happy and to get most of the circuit complete it was great, a couple more tries and I think I'll have a pretty good Idea of what it takes to make it right :P

I think the pre- sensitized boards would be nice to have. 8) I'm going to order some shortly.

I don't know what size a couple of those spots between the trace lines were, but let just say a needle had a hard time getting in between to clean stuff up :P ;D  "TIGHT" :P

I almost got the ID stamp to come out it was small ;D

Well more fun tomorrow, after some sleep.

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 17, 2010, 11:08:39 AM
HI Soren
Got all my goodies today Pickit2 and all the componets, just like Christmas all excited and couldn't sleep! :P

I got the first 675 programmed w/ the RGB HEX file using the pickit2 it was pretty easy 8), now just have to build the circuit and give it a try ;D  

I am working on a couple more attempts at getting that PIC Gov Board finished and no lift marks would be nice 8)

I am going to drill out the circuit below I think it will work fine for the job at hand ???

Hope that issue with the 675 timing isn't being a Hugh pain while making the code :-\

And I don't care what everybody says about you! Your still okay by me.  :D :D :D ;)

"REALLY ALWAYS LOTS OF THANKS TO YOU FROM HERE"

Talk at you later! ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 17, 2010, 05:36:54 PM
Hey Soren

I am needing your opinion. When drilling PCB's w/ say w/a dremel tool  are HSS or Carbide bits a better choice to use.

I have a feeling that breaking a few is possible @ 1.2mm :P
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 17, 2010, 06:42:14 PM
Hi Neil,

Nice job with the PCBs (although the first one is the nicest IMO).
When you do toner transfer, set it to "very black" (without overdoing it of course) and do touch up with a Sharpie or similar etch resistant pen - and a scalpel or similar can be used to scrape off toner in places where there should be none.
Pieces of broken hacksaw blades is really useable for making scrapers to break connections between traces, whether before or after etching.


I am needing your opinion. When drilling PCB's w/ say w/a dremel tool  are HSS or Carbide bits a better choice to use.

I have a feeling that breaking a few is possible @ 1.2mm :P
If you have a drill stand, carbides are best, as they cut clean holes, while the HSS variety will be dulled pretty fast and start drawing the copper upwards in a little volcano shaped dimple.
Perhaps an HSS will last an entire board when using phenolic board, I shy from that, as glass fibre board is "impossible" to crack, but it does kill HSS drills.

But... If handheld, only use HSS or you will break them faster than dulling a HSS as the wolfram has no give. Don't trash carbides when broken, but save them for scribes. Mounted in a piece of tube (i make a hex-crimp on a copper tube), they just need a short trip to a grinder and you have a perfect scribe that marks any metal.

1.2mm is OK for the larger holes, but 0.8mm gives a more solid fit for ICs, resistors and caps - the components shouldn't be carried in solder, but drawn sideways, cut and soldered and it's the bend that should lock the component in place. The solder is just for electrical conductance.

Btw. If you need to redrill a hole to a larger dimension in a partly populated board, don't use carbide - much to easy to kill them that way.


I'm still trying to figure the best solution for the program, but have been busy on family matters - Still on it every second I get to be online.
 
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 17, 2010, 08:35:42 PM
Hi Soren
Quote
I'm still trying to figure the best solution for the program, but have been busy on family matters - Still on it every second I get to be online.
  You have givin up a lot of your time for me on this so,No rush here!  ;)   

And yes the first PCB was a lot cleaner, I will drill both and use as needed. I have learned a lot and yes there is a great need for some extra tools to clean the jobs up also.

If by chance there is a different PIC, that would make things easier to write for, let me know and I'll order anyone that's needed if it makes it any easier on your end and I can still program it with the Pickit2.

I know this project is running a long time and I am sure you wouldn't' mind it getting wrapped up ;D

Night Soren

Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 19, 2010, 07:40:05 AM
Hi Neil,

And yes the first PCB was a lot cleaner, I will drill both and use as needed. I have learned a lot and yes there is a great need for some extra tools to clean the jobs up also.
The missing pad can be replaced with a wire formed into an eyelet and soldered onto component and trace. That shouldn't detract from stability if done carefully.

As I mentioned, hacksaw blades can be used for a variety of scrapers. I have a range of odd shapes for this and that, all made similar to this:
(http://That.Homepage.dk/Img/Tool.jpg)
This was made from a 10mm acrylic rod and about 5cm of a hacksaw blade (the type with cobalt and wolfram in the steel). Araldite was used to bind it in a hole with "jagged" walls (made with a small ball shaped router in a "Dremel") and the blade was serrated along the edges as well to bind the glue better.
A cutting wheel was used for the rough shaping and a wet grinder for the edge.
Every now and then I hone it on an oil stone (finishing off on a well oiled slab of Hard Arkansas) and then it's razor sharp.
I mistreat it a lot, since it's easy to get it back in shape and this particular one (the only one of them I have here at my GFs place), have seen around 20 years of bashing, which explains the color tone of the Araldite.


If by chance there is a different PIC, that would make things easier to write for, let me know and I'll order anyone that's needed if it makes it any easier on your end and I can still program it with the Pickit2.
I'm about to have a solution I think - found some code snippets that I have to toss around and add to, to keep both timing requirements in check.
Another way to do it would be to use two controllers to get mint timing and let one control the other, but that's bottoming out I think - I think I'll have something for test in a couple of days (Oh, there's a birthday party tomorrow, but anyway).

One thing that you could do, to familiarize yourself with the stuff and to prepare...
Controllers like the '675 that is made to be able to run from an internal RC oscillator is individually calibrated in manufacture. The calibration data is embedded in the code space at the top addresses and must not be overwritten (or you'd have to recalibrate it yourself).
If you take the ones you got, mark them in some way (like 1, 2, 3 etc. don't know how many you ordered) and read the entire code space and save as a file for each (number them in a way that you can differentiate them, the calibration data will be different from one to the next).

Whether this is necessary or not, depends on the programmer and whether it will write the entire space, but it's not a bad idea to have saved the data - just in case.


I know this project is running a long time and I am sure you wouldn't' mind it getting wrapped up ;D
It's not that it bores me or nothing, but I think it should be mounted on that warm lump of shaky metal for a cosy time soon ;D

Btw. Have you considered how you wanna box it in?
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 19, 2010, 04:01:07 PM
Hi Soren
Quote
As I mentioned, hacksaw blades can be used for a variety of scrapers. I have a range of odd shapes for this and that, all made similar to this

Are you sure you haven't been to Prison?  :P :D
I really like that scraper and the way your making them I will keep that in mind as I build my tool kit up.

Quote
The calibration data will be different from one to the next.
Hope I haven't screwed anything up, I used the Pickit2 to drop that RGB.hex in one of my "2" 675's I had no idea about the calibration that was already loaded. I will figure out how to check it today or later tonight ::) >:(

Quote
It's not that it bores me or nothing, but I think it should be mounted on that warm lump of shaky metal for a cosy time soon
I wouldn't mind running some real test on the engine myself 8)

Quote
BTW. Have you considered how you wanna box it in?
I am glad you asked that question as I have been thinking about that issue. Once the circuit is tested, do you see a problem with doing a EPOXYencapsulation? As it would make it more weather and vibration resistant ???
I was just kicking the thought around to make things as stable as possible :P

A Little picture of my progress I only could only get the 1.2mm bits local so the holes are very big but I will get it taken care of ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 20, 2010, 09:36:10 AM
Hi Neil,

Are you sure you haven't been to Prison?  :P :D
I really like that scraper and the way your making them I will keep that in mind as I build my tool kit up.
Not that I recall ;D
I'm considering making some pages on several homemade tools, as I have made quite a lot over the years - either because it doesn't exist in a ready made version, or like with some of the small knives and scalpels, to make them a better shape or sometimes, by using 2mm saw blades, to make them more rigid.
Not that I think you need advice in that department :)


Hope I haven't screwed anything up, I used the Pickit2 to drop that RGB.hex in one of my "2" 675's I had no idea about the calibration that was already loaded. I will figure out how to check it today or later tonight ::) >:(
For the RGB lamp, timing is not critical, so that shouldn't ruin anything.


I am glad you asked that question as I have been thinking about that issue. Once the circuit is tested, do you see a problem with doing a EPOXYencapsulation? As it would make it more weather and vibration resistant ???
I was just kicking the thought around to make things as stable as possible :P
When it's totally done and verified, first cover it with Plastikote (spray "paint" plastic coating) or similar, to verify that the total isolation won't do strange things due to the better isolation. If that goes well, epoxy is the best solution, but add a small heat sink and epoxy it so that some of the metal is in free air - lets go into the details when we're there.


A Little picture of my progress I only could only get the 1.2mm bits local so the holes are very big but I will get it taken care of ;D
Nice!
Very good for a firstborn ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 20, 2010, 06:36:02 PM
Hi Soren
Quote
I'm considering making some pages on several homemade tools
That would be very helpful, I didn't realize until I did that first board, then you see right away that there are going to be needing special tools to do a good job!

Especially if things can be used from around your home, as new tools get pretty expensive. Saves more for the Chips & Dips " they are not very flavorful though" :P
I  Will Update on this calibration memory numbers info, as I am learning more on what to look for while using MPLAB w/ my Pickit2. sorry for the gibberish . ::)

So any ways I wanted to let you know about that the 675 board is complete and ready at what ever time we want to program.

LIKE I SAID NO RUSH HERE, JUST KEEPING YOU UPDATED ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 24, 2010, 11:21:01 AM
Hi Soren
I just wanted to let you know incase it is needed at your end the OSCCALfor the chip in circut is 3434.

Wasn't sure if you needed it or not so I thought I would slip this note to you! ;)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 24, 2010, 08:28:19 PM
Hi Neil,

I just wanted to let you know incase it is needed at your end the OSCCALfor the chip in circut is 3434.

Wasn't sure if you needed it or not so I thought I would slip this note to you! ;)
Thanks. It shouldn't be needed right away, but it's nice to have JIC.
Please check your PM inbox (couldn't email you).


That would be very helpful, I didn't realize until I did that first board, then you see right away that there are going to be needing special tools to do a good job!
When you have done a few boards, I'm sure you get the routine and will only occasionally need to touch up, but don't forget a permanent marker to repair pinholes and such in the toner before you etch.

I'll see if I can make a rig to take photos while I make tools - I'm ordering a remote control (and a macro bellow) for my new cam in a week or so (the Chinese are celebrating their new year, so DealExtreme has been closed down for sales for some time and will be for the rest of the month :().


Especially if things can be used from around your home, as new tools get pretty expensive. Saves more for the Chips & Dips " they are not very flavorful though" :P
Yes - it does depend on the home of course.

Good steel can be found in car springs (leaf springs in particular, if you aren't a trained black smith), worn down shock absorbers have a very hard steel rod in the center (can be cut out with a angle grinder), old spring mattresses may have a fairly useable rim of flat steel as well. Broken hack saw blades never get thrown out at my place and whenever I can lay my paws on a blade from a hydraulic hack saw (those are thick, broad, long and hard as The Hot Place Below - can only be drilled with a carbide drill which glows red while going through it)... Extremely nice material.

Dime store kitchen knives has fairly good steel as well and grinds down to almost any shape (just remember a frequent quenching bath to keep the temper, but that goes for all hardened steel.
Piano wire, the "cutting rods" (don't know the correct term) for a lathe and tungsten electrodes for TIG welding are very usefull to have around as well (I do have to find a cheap source for the TIG electrodes though) and well... A bit of "eye" for moulding it all into useable tools.

Whenever I find useable steel (and other materials), I stock up a bit, to the point of reaching the WAF (Wife Annoyance Factor) - she might disagree that it happened long ago ;)
Remember to tell her how much you save, every time you use some of the stock (also works well when you buy components by the kilo, as long as you remember a small present for her).

Do you have a "Dremel"?
It's close to indispensable, no matter which hobby you choose (bar stamp collecting perhaps).
If not, you could just get a (knock off) flexible extension and mount it on a motor.
The extension can be used with a regular mains driven hand drill.

Dremels (including the numerous knock offs) are a bit too high speed for lots of things and I never use them at full speed anyway. I have a smaller 12V rotary drill with a homegrown speed regulator that goes all the way down to less than useable (with enough power and regulation to keep the speed steady) and it's quite a bit easier to handle for precision work.

It is a good tool for making other tools, but... It WILL break your piggy bank, once you discover the incredible amount of bits (and bobs) that exists for it ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 25, 2010, 04:16:52 PM
Hi Soren
Check your PM  when you see this will ya ??? :P
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on February 28, 2010, 03:14:32 PM
Hello Soeren
I just got home from my little Hostel stay ;) the VANCOMI seems to be doing the JOB ;D

 I loaded the Hex and still no luck.

That being said, wait until you do any more work on the program. I am going to set up a couple small LED light flashing programs to make sure I am doing and loading thing correctly.

Even though it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY I would or could make a mistake :o :P :D ;D

Really I just want to make sure your work is not in vain, because I am doing something wrong ;)

I'll get back with you after I run a couple test and program another chip I have.


And yes I agree no matter how proud you are of the little devils, they are a bit ugly out of the gate thank goodness for Cave Women or we would have never made it :D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on February 28, 2010, 04:05:38 PM
Hi Neil,

I just got home from my little Hostel stay ;) the VANCOMI seems to be doing the JOB ;D
Great to hear  ;D ;D ;D


Even though it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY I would or could make a mistake :o :P :D ;D
OK then, I'm a bit curious about what the 'scope would tell?


[...] thank goodness for Cave Women or we would have never made it :D
Agreed ;)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on March 02, 2010, 01:15:18 PM
Hello Soeren
I went and set up a couple small circits with LED's to test if I was doing things right with the pickit2. In both cases I loaded a hex into a 675 and then ran them both programs did as they we're wrote blinking the leds as told in description. So a I am pretty sure I am loading the programs properly :P :) :-\

Well I hope a picture is worth a thousand words ::)

I didn't get any servo movement except from 5v supply for the servo, but no PWM

I took V measurements and hooked to the scope and these are the results.

I  do have 2 questions " how is it that there is no voltage drop between R3 and Q1" And this one has nothing to do with our work but lets say you needed to use a signal at the Emitter of Q1 to send a pulse, with it being a NPN would you use a pull up resistor to make high impedance to VSS. ::) Hope that wasn't a silly question :P

Well here are the Pictures I will wait to hear from you, I have to lay down for a bit and give that leg a rest ;)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on March 02, 2010, 04:34:33 PM
Hi Neil,


I went and set up a couple small circits with LED's to test if I was doing things right with the pickit2. In both cases I loaded a hex into a 675 and then ran them both programs did as they we're wrote blinking the leds as told in description. So a I am pretty sure I am loading the programs properly :P :) :-\
Did you burn and run the LED programs into the '675 on the PCB or in another one?
If another one, please try the one on the board (just connect the LED with wires).
(Not that I think there's anything wrong with the PCB or the assembly, besides what's mentioned below ;))


I took V measurements and hooked to the scope and these are the results.
D1 and D2 seems to be shorted.
Not that it should keep it from working, but it needs to be fixed anyhow.
Please repeat the voltage measurements when that's fixed.


I  do have 2 questions " how is it that there is no voltage drop between R3 and Q1"
Err, what?
R3 is connected to the collector of Q1, so it's a short, you might say. I guess this is not what you meant?


And this one has nothing to do with our work but lets say you needed to use a signal at the Emitter of Q1 to send a pulse, with it being a NPN would you use a pull up resistor to make high impedance to VSS. ::) Hope that wasn't a silly question :P
No, you would use the collector of a PNP, as the emitter of an NPN is from 0.0V to 0.7V below the base, so won't work like you picture it.
Do you have a particular situation in mind, that you need to mod or were you just wondering?


Well here are the Pictures I will wait to hear from you, I have to lay down for a bit and give that leg a rest ;)
Have a quick recovery!
(And tell your GF that regular massages may help ;))
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on March 02, 2010, 11:05:32 PM
Hi Soeren

Well the chip was bad. And D1, D2 shorted :P

I replaced everything, new Chip and Diodes.

Okay I took the LED program and did a ICSP loaded it and hooked up the LED and it was working, then I attached the servo to it's connector and it started to pulse with the light. As you can see in the Video.

I the erased the chip and programed the SERVO. hex file into the chip, and had no responce or pulses on the trace.

I went back and erased the chip again and loaded the LED.hex and it started again as soon as the pickit finished loading.

AS for my questions earlier please ignore them ::) I have tied you up for a very long time and I should not get off  topic.
I know you were kind enough to help me with the circuits but I'm sure you had NOOOO! intentions of MARRIAGE :D :P :) ;D

So here are the latest Pic's and Vid's
I am sorry for dragging you in all this mud I've Made ::) :'(

[youtube=640,505]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPmGRW7Kgss[/youtube]
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on March 03, 2010, 07:42:58 AM
Hi Neil,


Well the chip was bad. And D1, D2 shorted :P
Great. Not that it was bad of course, but that it's sorted now.


I the erased the chip and programed the SERVO. hex file into the chip, and had no responce or pulses on the trace.
Which of the servo.hex files did you try?


I went back and erased the chip again and loaded the LED.hex and it started again as soon as the pickit finished loading.
Good, but don't drive the servo for more than a few moments like that, just in case.


AS for my questions earlier please ignore them ::) I have tied you up for a very long time and I should not get off  topic.
No problem and if it's relevant to help you understand the function of transistors...
But you decide if it's better to wait.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on March 03, 2010, 09:13:09 AM
Hi Soeren
The Hex file I used was the very last one you sent. http://that.homepage.dk/Img/Servo_Test_02.hex (http://that.homepage.dk/Img/Servo_Test_02.hex)
I was going to try the other files but I think I deleted them forgetting they were in my PM BOX. ::)

I found ver1 hex going to try it :P


Quote
No problem and if it's relevant to help you understand the function of transistors...
I am sure I will have a chance later to ask a few questions. :P  
I just feel bad because of using so much of your time and now the 675 is being a pain to write a program for because of timing issue and such.

So I'll keep my uncontrolled urges to suck your brain dry till a later day ;) :D

UPDATE USING VERS_1.0 HEX

Watch and be amazed :P :D ;D "THE CARNIVAL MAN YELLS TO THE CROWD"IT WALKS, IT TALKS, IT CRAWLS ON IT BELLY LIKE A SNAKE all this for just 1 krone  come in come in ::) :D
[youtube=640,505]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxkEC6fiT-g[/youtube]
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on March 03, 2010, 01:06:21 PM
Hi Soeren
I wanted to send this Video of the Signal Pulses from the 675.

I though it be more helpful than watching the servo move back and forth ::) ::) ::) ::) :P DUH!

The scope was set @ 5v/div and 1mS/div

I am glad to see some responce to the program, as I am sure you are ;)

OH yes, almost forgot, after the little componet failure I went and got a 30x jewelers eye piece, it was amazing to see the small hair like spots that were trying to bridge. I just cant believe these 51 year old eyes cant see that little stuff :'( I am still not sure where the issue was but I took a dental fine tip tool and cleaned around the tracks and it seemed to do the trick :)

I am going to add a heat sink to the 7805 it get hot fast, and as you say IT CANT HURT ;)

[youtube=640,505]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8yhUK3PpMA[/youtube]
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on March 03, 2010, 06:12:01 PM
Hi Neil,

Yay, I was starting to think I couldn't even make a test program ;)

Wonder why ver.2 of the hex didn't work, as it was much simpler, but who cares now, the interrupt version seems to be OK, so I'll continue with that.

But it'll have to wait, as I have to get up early and call the hardware store, so it's close to bedtime.

I just spend around $600 on hardware and they was very busy almost pushing me out of the store, as I was the last customer, so I didn't get a (quite expensive) SDS drill set i bought with me home and later I see a post on the receipt that was an error that they just didn't remove (allright, it was just about $4, but I'm allready P'd off at their hurrying a customer into not getting all the goods) - and I thought I was going to drill a lot tomorrow, now I have to spend a couple of hours in transport :(

Tomorrow evening I'll continue with the proggie - can't hammer drill the walls in the evening anyway.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on March 03, 2010, 07:24:33 PM
Hi Soeren

Quote
I was starting to think I couldn't even make a test program
If ever in doubt or there is a problem, always look in my direction first as in writing programs, it would be the most LOGICAL STEP :P

Quote
But it'll have to wait, as I have to get up early and call the hardware store
No Rush here, I have plenty of stuff to keep me in trouble, I am  working on a DMX Dongle assembly, I am going to do a little Christmas show this coming year.

Quote
almost pushing me out of the store
HELLO SHOPPERS PLEASE LEAVE MONEY AND GET OUT!!!!! Don't ya just love that >:(
Those SDS bits are great, with the way the shanks move in the Hammer drill chuck to increase efficiency while drilling stone or masonry materials.

Quote
can't hammer drill the walls in the evening anyway.
I know it's kinda like me starting that V8 at 3am it makes everyone a little on edge ;) :D ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on March 05, 2010, 02:02:57 PM
Hope the stone work went well :P
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on March 16, 2010, 05:12:12 PM
Hi,

Just in case anyone wondered... This is still alive and kickin', but we're going back and forth with the programming, to solve the timing and bang it all into the '675.

This tread will be updated, as soon as there is something which might be of public interest.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: wheelyneil on March 17, 2010, 08:35:16 AM
Hello Forum

I just wanted to post this link. It has some good information on making a good home brew PCB's. There have been a  few followers of this thread and thought maybe 1 or 2 that could use the information :-\

I posted it in another thread but wanted to set it here so anyone that needs it might see it here :P

Good Home Made PCB's (http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/pcbs.html)
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Daanii on March 18, 2010, 01:52:28 PM
Hi,

Just in case anyone wondered... This is still alive and kickin', but we're going back and forth with the programming, to solve the timing and bang it all into the '675.

This tread will be updated, as soon as there is something which might be of public interest.


Thanks for the update. I've been following this project for months. Look forward to seeing the governor in action, turning that wood into electricity.
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Daanii on April 11, 2010, 11:47:39 AM
What happened to this project? Any progress?
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Soeren on April 12, 2010, 09:40:33 PM
Hi,

What happened to this project? Any progress?
Well, yes and no.

Progress as in, we've dropped the servo since it would never really hold up for long in an outside job 24/7/365. It wasn't until the circuit behaved reasonably stable (just a little jitter was left to solve) that I really thought this to an end and decided that it would probably die really quick, as R/C fliers spend perhaps a couple of hours a week flying and this is gonna be mounted on a vibrating and hot engine outdoors in all kinds of weather.

To replace the servo, a ball screw seems to be what we've settled on. Worm drives and ready made linear actuators was considered, but I think they're too expensive, compared to a partly home made one.
It all depends on what machinery Neil has got access to of course.
In a home made actuator, you also have the opportunity to oversize and just that you know every part of it will help, should it break down (which it shouldn't of course, if just greased properly) and it's possible to select a motor where the brushes are replaceable.

There is going to be a few extras as well, like automatic shutdown if oil pressure is lost, perhaps remote start and shut down, remote coolant temperature thermometer and what not - Had it been an EFI system, we wouldn't even need an actuator, just tapping into the ECU and wiggle the bits about.

No progress as in, right now Neil is busy with other stuff, while he ponders over which extras should be added, when I have a list of that, I'll find a couple of useable controllers and we start making it.


While I wait for the list, I have been toying with an old idea (revisited often since I was a kid) - an automatic gear selector for my bicycle and I'm close to starting a prototype now - just need to finish the drawing of a cog wheel and find a place to get it cut in brass without selling my soul  ;D
Title: Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
Post by: Daanii on April 14, 2010, 05:01:40 PM
Thanks for the information. And good luck with the projects.