Author Topic: Learning to solder  (Read 3219 times)

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Offline vinito

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Re: Learning to solder
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2010, 10:00:41 PM »
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when they're sent to someone who don't like this "sport, I've never liked to do that to people who wants to learn. Besides the cruelty, it is very demotivating to be humiliated that way
Yea having been a teacher (and you never really quit) I agree with that. On the other hand I have been known to occasionally send a PITA off get a case of post holes out of the truck, or some such. The temporary peace and quiet was worth it. Philanthropy demands mindfulness.

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there is no reason to use lead-free unless you plan to eat food off your circuit board, or sell your circuit in Europe.
There's the issue of lead in the landfill thing too, but I still feel no need to surrender my lead solder. I'm sure I eat more bad stuff just in the produce I get from the grocery store than most anything I throw away.

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one should think it would be hard to mix up such things
Two-fisted drinker, huh? Should have taken one less sip of the wine before playing with the mesmerizing toxins.

Offline Soeren

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Re: Learning to solder
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2010, 10:12:36 PM »
Hi,

Perhaps I better get me some of it and make a video comparing it to Real SolderTM - sad thing is, that it's getting hard to find the stuff I like best (silver loaded) and even 60/40 is getting scarce (and of course prices goes up then).

For eating utensils, I have some special solder. My in-law (now retired... To the GOLF course) had a company specialising in hard and soft solder (among other stuff) and once, when I told him I needed some silver for brazing, he sent me some special "lead" for soft soldering at a slightly higher temp than 60/40, which was almost as strong as a silver braze and safe for eating utensils (which wasn't really an issue here, as it was repairing lamp armature).
Even problematic materials like aluminum and stainless steel, i have special solders for and they work like a charm, but the regular lead free solder I have seen so far has been a laugh.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
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Offline Admin

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Re: Learning to solder
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2010, 10:23:10 PM »
I'm expecting a video soon then ;D
I got one actually of me soldering an Axon by hand. The Axon uses 2oz copper designed to operate as a heat sink, yet I do *all* headers on it in under 40 seconds (if I remember right). But then I realized people could copy my technique and sell their own Axon imitation . . . :P

I use 2% rosin for good flow. 3% just gets too messy. I used to use 420C, but found 350C worked equally as well. I also found that if you got too hot, like 450C+, the rosin will burn away so fast it wouldn't flow. The datasheet should say what range is best.


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According to all the MDs I have discussed it with, humans cannot take heavy metals in in their metallic form. We are only able to assimilate it through the process of it being eaten by eg. a fish (in which it undergoes some changes to salts or whatever) which we eat later on.
There's been a few studies on people using lead-based solder, all came out inconclusive (statistically harmless). There is clear evidence to show that lead in a child's diet can cause retardation, but only inconclusive evidence is available for adults. Lead doesn't absorb through hands, and children typically do not solder. As long as they are taught to wash their hands and not put it in their mouth, no problem. No evidence to show lead solder fumes are more harmful than lead-less solder, either.

Yeap, lead in the body is bad I agree, but soldering lead doesn't by default put lead in your body (which is what I meant). And minute traces of it in an adult body hasn't shown to be harmful (or harmless, too).

And besides, lead-less solder has a lot of other chemicals in it with significantly fewer studies performed. Its perfectly possible for it to be discovered that lead-less solder is more dangerous than lead-based solder.

disclaimer: I last researched this topic about 1.5 years ago, and maybe something new has come up since.

Offline SmAsH

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Re: Learning to solder
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2010, 11:30:05 PM »
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yet I do *all* headers on it in under 40 seconds (if I remember right). But then I realized people could copy my technique and sell their own Axon imitation . . .
Oh, come on Admin! *grumble*
I personally have both solders at my desk and notice no difference from which one im using, but Soeren, i would love to see a video of what you are talking about!
Howdy

Offline Soeren

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Re: Learning to solder
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2010, 05:42:20 AM »
Hi,

I personally have both solders at my desk and notice no difference from which one im using, but Soeren, i would love to see a video of what you are talking about!
About solder or mercury?  ;)

Well, next time I get to the electronics store I'll try to remember to pick up some of the lead free for the show then - might be a while though, as I have been there recently and although my GF works 200m from the shop, last time she declared she wouldn't do it any more - she has been serviced very badly in there each time I have sent her.

10 days ago, I asked her to pick up a couple of BT151 (800V, 12A, SCRs), the desk keeper told her they didn't have that and gave her BT139 (400V, 15A, TRIACs) instead. Since I sent her for the other ones, she asked "Are you sure these are really OK" and another of the fools replied "it's much better" *facepalm*, so I called the shop and asked how this could happen, When I have just verified that they had them in the very store and well, they couldn't explain that, but I was welcome to come around and get them swapped - the knowledge of shop keepers (even people that has been there for more than a decade) is shocking and there's only the owner (allways busy with other stuff) and 1 more guy who actually know what they're selling it seems.

Well, back on subject - as soon as I get some of the lead free, I'll make a comparative study on the unleaded, the regular 40/60 and the silver loaded that I like best.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline chelmi

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Re: Learning to solder
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2010, 09:43:46 AM »
But there is no reason to use lead-free unless you plan to eat food off your circuit board, or sell your circuit in Europe. Lead-free is an expensive pain with no scientifically proven health benefit for adults.
According to all the MDs I have discussed it with, humans cannot take heavy metals in in their metallic form. We are only able to assimilate it through the process of it being eaten by eg. a fish (in which it undergoes some changes to salts or whatever) which we eat later on

Yes, RoHS directives are not meant to protect the end user, but to protect the environment and people in factories.

Offline Soeren

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Re: Learning to solder
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2010, 04:43:47 PM »
Hi,

Yes, RoHS directives are not meant to protect the end user, but to protect the environment and people in factories.
Do you know of any papers on the subject of lead influence in factory workers?
I would really like to see something consistent on the subject, because it strikes me as a decision made just to look decisive.

I mean, pickled slices of cucumber standing in most factories lunch cantinas (or what they're called) actually emits numerous times more acid vapors than would be accepted in a paint or similar - sometimes it's hard to take those laws serious.

We all know that alcohol and cars kill people - far more than lead do (unless in projectiles perhaps), but they don't get outlawed - and food in too large portions... Etc.

The government wants us to sort our trash as well, but in the "other end", they just pour it in one big pile, as it is too expensive to recycle properly (but we still have to waste time and pay for several containers).
Oh, the day a politician would make sure things worked out as well as intended and without bothering the people with nonsense, then I would be all for for it, but like it is now, I don't even wanna recycle our politicians.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline corrado33

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Re: Learning to solder
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2010, 05:01:13 PM »
Hi,
I mean, pickled slices of cucumber standing in most factories lunch cantinas (or what they're called) actually emits numerous times more acid vapors than would be accepted in a paint or similar - sometimes it's hard to take those laws serious.

We all know that alcohol and cars kill people - far more than lead do (unless in projectiles perhaps), but they don't get outlawed - and food in too large portions... Etc.

The government wants us to sort our trash as well, but in the "other end", they just pour it in one big pile, as it is too expensive to recycle properly (but we still have to waste time and pay for several containers).
Oh, the day a politician would make sure things worked out as well as intended and without bothering the people with nonsense, then I would be all for for it, but like it is now, I don't even wanna recycle our politicians.


Soeren, you've peaked my interest.  While looking at things the government does, and the things politicians say, I've realized one thing, the government sucks.  (Some) systems are corrupt, abused, and downright wrong.  However, things will never change because the majority of the population has no idea what's going on.

Mind you, I realize that without a government, most countries would crumble to their knees, I'm just saying that things in the government need to be reformed because they are based on old ideas, some (I'm guessing) still date back to the great depression era.  Also.... wait I'm way off topic... uh yeah... solder... 25W soldering iron... lead free...  ;) ;)

Offline Admin

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Re: Learning to solder
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2010, 10:23:41 PM »
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Do you know of any papers on the subject of lead influence in factory workers?
I would really like to see something consistent on the subject, because it strikes me as a decision made just to look decisive.
Unfortunately, no. I searched and had no luck. The impression I got was everyone wanted to know, but no factory wanted to open itself to litigation if workers were found to have been harmed. If workers can't prove it, factories can't be sued.


And Soeren, I agree with your rant :P

Politicians want to act on the will of the people, and do it asap, as its rightly their job. However 'the people' tend to react on immediate emotions and not on sound scientific facts (mad cow disease, bird flu, swine flu, Y2K bug, national health coverage, cell phone brain cancer, global warming, RoHS compliance, the list goes on and on). Politicians need to fund studies before reacting and passing laws, to understand the effects of such. Otherwise, the laws meant to help us could actually make things worse. I've always wanted an engineer for president, but thats just a pipe dream :P

Offline corrado33

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Re: Learning to solder
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2010, 06:58:56 AM »
Unfortunately, no. I searched and had no luck. The impression I got was everyone wanted to know, but no factory wanted to open itself to litigation if workers were found to have been harmed. If workers can't prove it, factories can't be sued.
Too bad, that would have been cool.

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Politicians want to act on the will of the people, and do it asap, as its rightly their job. However 'the people' tend to react on immediate emotions and not on sound scientific facts (mad cow disease, bird flu, swine flu, Y2K bug, national health coverage, cell phone brain cancer, global warming, RoHS compliance, the list goes on and on). Politicians need to fund studies before reacting and passing laws, to understand the effects of such. Otherwise, the laws meant to help us could actually make things worse. I've always wanted an engineer for president, but thats just a pipe dream :P

I had to write an essay on the MCATS the other day, and the question was "What do you think of the statement "The media controls the government more than the politicians do."(Or something to that effect)  I said.. Of course it does, the media controls the people, which in turn control the politicians!  Then I noted how people are very fickle.

Offline vinito

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Re: Learning to solder
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2010, 07:37:13 AM »
"The media" is a half-dozen guys who own it all, so dictate the formula for the news we are fed. I feel it's just a vehicle for them to make and keep their fortunes. A tool.
I agree that politicians are controlled by the people, but not all people. It's controlled by the relative few obscenely wealthy people who have deep enough pockets to actually influence what they do. If you are saying that politicians are controlled by us because of voting day, then I think you're missing a big chunk of it. After all, W. proved that you don't have to win the election to get the job. Just litigate your way in. I don't see people as being fickle as much as being easy to manipulate. Fickle would mean they change their mind a lot, but it seems to me that people have been pretty steadfast at swallowing all the garbage they have been being fed for at least a couple decades now. Politicians (for the most part) don't give a rat's pattooie about "the people" and the evidence for that is easy to find any day of the week. They care about keeping their power and money. Reacting on emotions is just one technique they use to that end. They want to keep the contributions coming in, so they appease the contributors by passing laws that essentially don't change anything or tilt the flow of money upward (eg. financial reform, mandatory health insurance, etc.) and throw stuff in for smoke & mirrors so people can be distracted to look the other way.

Rant over.
Except to say that that's why I still use leaded solder. I don't trust that any law passed to restrict the use of leaded solder actually studied enough of anything to know anything about whether the new recipe is any safer for anyone than the old, whether here or overseas. It does make a simple procedure more tricky to accomplish though, so it's got that going for it. If it makes things harder for the average guy to do, then let's make it a law.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 07:39:12 AM by vinito »

Offline Admin

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Re: Learning to solder
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2010, 08:21:11 AM »
Just like there are unskilled engineers, there are unskilled politicians. Be lucky you don't have the type of politicians found in 3rd world countries. ;)

Anyway, lets stay on subject (sorry, my fault too).

Offline Recycle

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Re: Learning to solder
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2010, 04:04:21 PM »
Hi
I've been lurking here for a few months, but have never posted.

I came across this website, and thought it my be useful.

http://curiousinventor.com

Surface Mount Soldering 101

« Last Edit: May 09, 2010, 06:18:40 AM by Recycle »

Offline TrickyNekro

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Re: Learning to solder
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2010, 07:06:45 PM »
The biggest problem with lead free solder is rework...

You definitely feel the difference when soldering but the big pain comes when you need to rework something....
You need to be always careful not to miss the spot of it will get cold and it needs more time for heat to transfer to the
surroundings... bad bad... the components gets lot of abuse this time...

Usually to rework a board I add leaded solder regardless of SMD or though hole...
Clean it one time and then reapply leaded solder... if needed or course...
And I got a 50W Weller which never seemed to run out of power when soldering (it's temperature controlled...)

I personally believe that there are two reasons behind lead free products (and that's not health concerns)...

As knowledge travels faster these days... Many more guys know how to repair, re-purpose or even reverse engineer
electronic boards... That's bad for companies... very bad... And that's even more bad for economy (as contracted)....
Cause usually guys repairing the neighbor's TV may get paid but almost always that's tax free... Don't really know
about you guys, and how's things in your country but in mine that would be illegal...
Even worse comes reverse engineering the product... Re-purposing is well.... let's say good... but can lead to reverse engineering... some times...

The other big "player" is repair method... You see as all parts are becoming SMDs we really have a hard time to solder...
Even company guys don't solder... But electronic devices nowadays come in "parts"...
For a digital receiver let's say, it's the power supply, the main boards, the tuner and so more examples like that...
Now... It's more profitable for the company if you buy a power supply than to remove some caps and diodes are fix the power supply...

So profit is in the middle not health problems... I really believe the new solder is worse as far health concerns...
It smells bad... very bad... And after soldering with lead free... my throat is having a very bad time...
I don't know if I'm just used to leaded solder... but I don't remember having a bad throat for hours after soldering... really...
And I can still think and do sports... so... lead poisoning isn't an issue no matter first soldering when I was 13...
And not always be careful with cleaning, or washing my hands... :-p
For whom the interrupts toll...


P.S. I've been inactive for almost a year... Don't give promises but I'll try to complete my tutorials. I'll let you know when..

Cheers!

Offline corrado33

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Re: Learning to solder
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2010, 06:12:52 AM »

[youtube]Surface Mount Soldering 101[/youtube]


That is a VERY informative video.  Very well done, I like it.

 


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