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Author Topic: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.  (Read 3179 times)

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Offline xkucoTopic starter

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suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« on: July 24, 2011, 01:53:43 AM »
hello they call me KuCo and im new to the forum but have been reading in this forum for a while and decided to finally join. there is alot of helpful information and people on here that has gotten me through alot of projects. thanks for that. onto my new project I would like to build a pan/tilt for my kid he is getting into cinematography and i want to surprise him with something like the photo i attached all i need to know is basically what motors and chip would you guys suggest with controller? preferably a joystick of some sort. also his camera is a nikon d7000 and doesnt have the capabilities of remote start/stop function on video so on this remote i want to put a small actuator of some sort to press the button, i looked around and couldnt find one small enough any suggestions on this project?? the reason i ask is because i want to buy the right stuff the first time and not buy something that is too much for me, or that is not strong enough. thanks ahead of time.

Offline Soeren

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2011, 01:09:22 PM »
Hi,

[...] all i need to know is basically what motors and chip would you guys suggest with controller? preferably a joystick of some sort.
Any suggestion needs to be based on how fast you wanna move how large a mass and how well dampened you need the system to be.
Does it have to hang like in the photo, or should it be used with a standard tri-pod?

How exactly the controller should interface depends on how the joystick is arranged internally.
If you want a high quality joystick, be prepared to pay through your nose.


also his camera is a nikon d7000 and doesnt have the capabilities of remote start/stop function on video so on this remote i want to put a small actuator of some sort to press the button, i looked around and couldnt find one small enough any suggestions on this project??
What size does "small enough" cover?

You could just rig a gizmo that goes on the tripod-screw and allow you to mount eg. a micro servo either directly over the button or via a cable or rod, that pulls a (rubber?) "finger" towards the button.

The Pan/Tilt can then mount to that contraption, and you don't need to use the standard (1/4"-20) thread as is on the camera for that. A snap-lock system may be the best, if he has to make hand-held stills in-between.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
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Offline Gertlex

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2011, 04:21:29 PM »
I don't know much about large cameras, except that they're usually nice and modular.  Does that possibly extend to adding the remote option to cameras that don't come with it?  Figured I'd mention that possibility in case you hadn't thought of it; perhaps there are in fact such add-ons that you can buy.
I

Offline Soeren

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2011, 04:46:47 PM »
Hi,

Not for the D7000 unfortunately. The IR remote cannot be used in Video mode (for anything but stop a manually started video and taking a Live View pic).

And as far as I checked it out, it doesn't seem to have an option for a wired remote (not that I looked all that hard and I didn't download the manual) - really strange in this price class.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline xkucoTopic starter

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2011, 08:11:11 PM »
thanks for the speedy replies and im sorry for not being that specific. :(.
ok i need to move about 45 degrees a sec if possible but also have the possibility of going 3 degrees a sec, it has to be smooth starting and stopping.  the weight im not sure i will be building in a few weeks just kinda busy right now but my estimate with camera would be 3-7 pounds. and yes it is hanging just like in the picture i already made the crane, and honestly about the controller just the cheapest joystick that will work with the system suggested really. its for my kid like i said before.

about the video mode i have done lots of research on it and the ML-L3 controller i think its called is the only controller for the camera and like Soeren said it only takes pictures with the camera thats it. and i need a solenoid to press the button which is 1/10 of an inch i would put the rig on but to add that to the controller would be great! again thanks for the speedy reply.

Offline xkucoTopic starter

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2011, 09:07:45 PM »
ok i have also been talking to one of my friends and sorry for posting twice but he recommended some things im going to post just to share info and to see opinions. like i said before thanks for help guys i have learned alot in this process.

remote with wireless kit
http://www.servocity.com/html/tactic_x404_system.html

i like the remote he recommended but i would rather have something like this
http://www.servocity.com/html/2_servo_joystick.html
but the one that i put the link for only controls analog servos and also only controls them up to 180 degrees

motor (says itll be quieter) but couldnt answer if it would be fast enough?
http://www.servocity.com/html/90_rpm_precision_gear_motor.html 

man this is alot of information :o but loving the learning processes thanks guys great community! ;D

Offline Soeren

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2011, 04:08:56 PM »
Hi,

ok i need to move about 45 degrees a sec if possible but also have the possibility of going 3 degrees a sec, it has to be smooth starting and stopping. 
That sounds like a usable range.

On broadcast equipment, you adjust such things as the speed of Pan/Tilt/Zoom functions on separate knobs and when activated, they pan (or whatever) at that speed and I think you should do it that way, as the pan and tilt will usually need different speeds for a smoothly flowing picture.

Smooth starting and stopping is nice, but even without it, you usually film more than you need, to be able to select exactly where you should cut it afterward.
Does he have the equipment for cutting/editing?


the weight im not sure i will be building in a few weeks just kinda busy right now but my estimate with camera would be 3-7 pounds. and yes it is hanging just like in the picture i already made the crane,
OK, for the tilt function, you should counter-balance the camera, or the motor will need all that more power.
The weight in question is just what each motor will see. The tilt motor will move the camera and the release-contraption and the pan motor will see this plus the weight of the tilt-unit.

With proper counter-balancing, you should be able to get the tilt motor to see less than 50g and the pan should hang in bearings, to minimize the force on the pan motor.

Did you consider to add a remote zoom function?


and honestly about the controller just the cheapest joystick that will work with the system suggested really. its for my kid like i said before.
You keep mentioning it's for a kid, but I wonder at what age the cheapest joysticks will do, while still being old enough to play with an expensive D7000?  ;D

If you have a very old plain PC joystick (like from the eighties) lying around, that would do.
Or you can get a thumb joystick for $4 at Sparkfun.


[...] and i need a solenoid to press the button which is 1/10 of an inch i would put the rig on but to add that to the controller would be great! again thanks for the speedy reply.
A micro servo will give a softer press than a solenoid.

I'm not certain if we use the same terminology. When I say controller, I mean a microcontroller. To this comes motor drivers, as the controller cannot in itself drive a motor.

The controller needs input from the "hand interface" (eg. joystick) and perhaps a couple of speed setting potentiometers.

If needed, the joystick could be using a wireless link, but the speed settings are best placed on or near the controller, which in turn should go on the pan/tilt unit or the crane.

Did you think about how he's gonna frame the shots?
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline xkucoTopic starter

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2011, 07:56:01 PM »
Hi,

That sounds like a usable range.

On broadcast equipment, you adjust such things as the speed of Pan/Tilt/Zoom functions on separate knobs and when activated, they pan (or whatever) at that speed and I think you should do it that way, as the pan and tilt will usually need different speeds for a smoothly flowing picture.

Smooth starting and stopping is nice, but even without it, you usually film more than you need, to be able to select exactly where you should cut it afterward.
Does he have the equipment for cutting/editing?


ok he is isnt young he is 16 and he does have all cutting and editing software needed. so did you look at the links i posted? what did you think are they good enough?



OK, for the tilt function, you should counter-balance the camera, or the motor will need all that more power.
The weight in question is just what each motor will see. The tilt motor will move the camera and the release-contraption and the pan motor will see this plus the weight of the tilt-unit.

With proper counter-balancing, you should be able to get the tilt motor to see less than 50g and the pan should hang in bearings, to minimize the force on the pan motor.

Did you consider to add a remote zoom function?

yes i have considered it but i would like to get the basics and learn the basics before adding zoom as well. i think after all this work im just gonna use it for myself lmao hahahaha .



You keep mentioning it's for a kid, but I wonder at what age the cheapest joysticks will do, while still being old enough to play with an expensive D7000?  Grin

If you have a very old plain PC joystick (like from the eighties) lying around, that would do.
Or you can get a thumb joystick for $4 at Sparkfun.

like i said i posted two controllers did you see them ? what did you think? and also those are just reconmendations. im head because i would like your guys opinions i will highly consider what you guys give me. if you think a cheaper controller wont work because of function then fine scratch it ill go with a 80 dollar controller lol it doesnt bother me i just want it to last and work especially if im putting this much time and money. and i also am asking because like i said before i dont want to buy the wrong thing and then it not be compatible or something.

A micro servo will give a softer press than a solenoid.

I'm not certain if we use the same terminology. When I say controller, I mean a microcontroller. To this comes motor drivers, as the controller cannot in itself drive a motor.

The controller needs input from the "hand interface" (eg. joystick) and perhaps a couple of speed setting potentiometers.

If needed, the joystick could be using a wireless link, but the speed settings are best placed on or near the controller, which in turn should go on the pan/tilt unit or the crane.

Did you think about how he's gonna frame the shots?

awesome so what do you reccomend with this situation then, actually the whole situation can you post liinks im literally gonna make a turtorial step by step with thanks to basically you for this whole thing. and yes we have a 7.8" monitor at the base of the crane.

i woud really like to talk to you offline to get specifics on the parts and what ill need for the tutorial. thanks soeren your amazing man i have learned alot in a very little bit of time.

Offline Soeren

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2011, 04:59:37 PM »
Hi,

so did you look at the links i posted? what did you think are they good enough?

The motor seems fine.

The R/C transmitter will be very clumsy to use - the "joysticks" are single plane, i.e. one is up/down, the other is left/right and takes some time getting used to - a regular stick will be more "natural" to handle (if a stick is needed at all).

The "2 Servo Joystick" is a servo controller with a joystick, not what you need, you just need the stick - if you do.
This stick is from Servo City as well ($20) and should do fine (if you want a stick):

(Click image for the product page).


Did you consider to add a remote zoom function?

 
yes i have considered it but i would like to get the basics and learn the basics before adding zoom as well. i think after all this work im just gonna use it for myself lmao hahahaha .

Sensible, but do make sure to leave room for the mechanical bits, if you want to add one later.


like i said i posted two controllers did you see them ? what did you think?

I think we should eliminate a communication errors ;D
This is one example of a microcontroller, albeit a very small one:


And this an example of a microcontroller board (plus a programmer and a couple of CD's with programming environment, datasheets and what not):

In fact, this is the one I'd suggest - What's in the picture costs $50 (The programmer is $35 when bought separately).
And you can get a packet with just one populated board plus two blank boards for $26 for your next projects,

This will interface a joystick like the one I linked to, a couple of potentiometers (knobs), some switches and whatever else is needed to the motors driving the pan/tilt (and zoom) and still have resources left.

Yes, it does mean that you have to learn a bit of programming, but that may easily turn into a father/son activity that others will envy (plus give you a few grey hairs when it behaves differently than you thought you asked it to ;))
And in a few years time, your entire home is automated  ;D ;D


if you think a cheaper controller wont work because of function then fine scratch it ill go with a 80 dollar controller lol it doesnt bother me i just want it to last and work especially if im putting this much time and money. and i also am asking because like i said before i dont want to buy the wrong thing and then it not be compatible or something.

It dawned on me, that a joystick may be hard to control. Either it tries to move the camera with each tiny change of its position, which will give shake (unless it's catered for in software), or it moves to whatever position is selected at a steady speed and stops when it reaces the goal.
A better way of using pan/tilt would IMO be, to first enter how fast(/far) it should move in each axis and then have buttons to make it move, either for as long as the button is held, or when pushed, move a preset number of degrees and then stop.
This would make a smoother combined pan/tilt than possible by hand.
An in-between solution would be controlling the above from a switch joystick (one that has got 4 switches rather than 2 potentiometers)

Another thought is to use worm drives for the final gears, as this will hold its position (no back drive) when unpowered.


i woud really like to talk to you offline to get specifics on the parts and what ill need for the tutorial. thanks soeren your amazing man i have learned alot in a very little bit of time.

You're welcome  :)

And do feel free to
swing by me - we've got plenty of cafes   :D
OTOH, you could buy a couple of ready-built PTZ-units if you don't, but where's the fun in that  :o
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline xkucoTopic starter

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2011, 02:38:23 AM »
Hi,

so did you look at the links i posted? what did you think are they good enough?

The motor seems fine.

The R/C transmitter will be very clumsy to use - the "joysticks" are single plane, i.e. one is up/down, the other is left/right and takes some time getting used to - a regular stick will be more "natural" to handle (if a stick is needed at all).

The "2 Servo Joystick" is a servo controller with a joystick, not what you need, you just need the stick - if you do.
This stick is from Servo City as well ($20) and should do fine (if you want a stick):

(Click image for the product page).


alright so i was looking at the joysticks and and im gonna go with this one

joystick:
http://www.servocity.com/html/2_function_joystick__thick_sti.html

motor:
http://www.servocity.com/html/90_rpm_precision_gear_motor.html 

i really dont know anything about programming and making the whole setup. i just wanted to know as well if i get this set up will it be sensitive like for example when using the joystick if i move it a little itll go slow and if i go all the way it goes faster?? or do you have to program that?

I think we should eliminate a communication errors Grin
This is one example of a microcontroller, albeit a very small one:


And this an example of a microcontroller board (plus a programmer and a couple of CD's with programming environment, datasheets and what not):

In fact, this is the one I'd suggest - What's in the picture costs $50 (The programmer is $35 when bought separately).
And you can get a packet with just one populated board plus two blank boards for $26 for your next projects,

This will interface a joystick like the one I linked to, a couple of potentiometers (knobs), some switches and whatever else is needed to the motors driving the pan/tilt (and zoom) and still have resources left.

Yes, it does mean that you have to learn a bit of programming, but that may easily turn into a father/son activity that others will envy (plus give you a few grey hairs when it behaves differently than you thought you asked it to Wink)


Offline xkucoTopic starter

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2011, 03:00:33 AM »
also gears im using are these :
http://www.servocity.com/html/32_pitch_acetal_hub_gears__3_1.html

and do i need a speed controller???
like this:
http://www.servocity.com/html/precision_digital_speed_contro.html

and could i building something like this but adding the button to start/pause video??
http://www.servocity.com/html/2_servo_joystick.html

like buy the joy stick i was talking about and add my own servo controller and motor and then ike i sid will i need the speed controller ? because i would like to have joystick sensitivity ike i said in my other post.

Offline Soeren

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2011, 04:31:33 PM »
Hi,

alright so i was looking at the joysticks and and im gonna go with this one
Your choice, but the ball headed one will be smoother in use I think. Besides the shape of the stick, they're the same.


motor:
You need to gear it down around 12 times to reach the 45°/second. As I mentioned, if you do it with a worm drive it will be self-locking when unpowered.


i really dont know anything about programming and making the whole setup. i just wanted to know as well if i get this set up will it be sensitive like for example when using the joystick if i move it a little itll go slow and if i go all the way it goes faster?? or do you have to program that?
You'll have to learn programming to complete this, but then you decide how the controller reacts to joystick input.


also gears im using are these :
No worms in sight there.


and do i need a speed controller???
No, this will be dealt with in software.


and could i building something like this but adding the button to start/pause video??
[Snip link]

like buy the joy stick i was talking about and add my own servo controller and motor and then ike i sid will i need the speed controller ? because i would like to have joystick sensitivity ike i said in my other post.
Yes, although it's not a servo controller you need to make.
The servo controller contains a microcontroller programmed to act like it do (joystick input and servo signals as output). The controller you need should take joystick input and give motor speed/direction output. It should do this different from the servo controller, since that just relates the position of the stick to the position of the servos, while you want no motion in the center position and speed proportional to stick offset.

But...
I'm seeing you buying fancy rims, trims, tires, steering wheel etc. way before you have even settled on a car.

Take a deep breath and start considering the controller that connects all the rest and translate hand moves into camera moves.

Your shopping list will look something like:
Microcontroller board (plus programmer)
2 motors
2 off 12:1 gear (preferably worm drive and tilt may benefit from a higher gear ratio)
Joystick
Start/stop button (using two in series makes unintentionally starts/stops)
Perhaps 2 potentiometers (to set max speed of joystick)

And if you wanna shop for the zoom at the same time:
1 motor (a smaller one would do)
Gearing for the above
Perhaps a single axis stick/T-handle (could be a homemade "button" for a potentiometer)

And of course a box for the controller and the hardware you need to assemble the thing.


And in regards to your PM, no, I don't use any I.M. - it became too much of a load many years back, with people (even some I never had been in contact with previously) expecting be to stand by at all times with engineering help, so I pulled the plug on that.
If, however, you know of a chat room that doesn't need you to log-in and we can find a common time... Regretfully, the SoR chat hasn't been working for a very long time AFAIK.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline xkucoTopic starter

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2011, 02:01:15 AM »
hey man thanks for the info could you help me with this buying guide for the turtorial then with links ?? you can just send the links and ill write up the price and info for the people

Offline Soeren

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2011, 07:32:00 AM »
Hi,

hey man thanks for the info could you help me with this buying guide for the turtorial then with links ?? you can just send the links and ill write up the price and info for the people
Sorry, but "paperwork" interests me nada and you already have most of the links you need in this thread.
Besides, you have shown a thundering silence, in respect to actually facing the fact that, you'll need a microcontroller in some variety, so I'm not entirely sure, that you're gonna finish this thing at all.


In a more general perspective (i.e. a common thing among beginners), I have never understood the big planning around making tutorials before one has acquired the skills needed for finishing the project at hand - like trying to teach people to drive before your own drivers license is in your pocket.

Design and build first, document for own use during the design/build phases. When a successful build of a working whatever is accomplished, then the notes may be assembled as a recipe for how it was done.
If you want to make a tutorial, build many, in various shapes and with various methods, so that you know different ways to handle the same issues - then you may be up to writing a tutorial proper.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline xkucoTopic starter

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2011, 07:48:19 AM »
make sense and yes i am going to complete this like i said i dont know anything about servos and what not thats why i asked im buying stuff this weekend and thats why i asked for your help man. i would like to bu that board and two dvd set dont know were to get it you didnt post a link and i know nothing about micro controllers im still reasearching. but if you think im not gonna complete this you have something coming for you man. im not one of these "regular beginners". but you are 100% correct about the tutorial and i will push that aside to learn. i respect your knowledge but dont respect that you assume.

Offline Soeren

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2011, 05:34:14 PM »
Hi,

Perhaps I have been too influenced by a similar project of mine; An automatic panorama head for going on a common tripod. In your project, since it shouldn't move by itself, you actually can get it done without a controller. This will need you to solder together a couple of discrete circuits though - how are your soldering skills and your "follow schematics" skills?


i would like to bu that board and two dvd set dont know were to get it you didnt post a link and i know nothing about micro controllers im still reasearching.
It's a development system from MicroChip and you can get it directly from them or locally at certain electronics stores. On second thought, I think you'd be better off with an Arduino though, as there is a bundle of example code on the net and I think it just need a USB cable (or a USB-Serial cable) for loading the code - don't quote me on that though, AVR based Arduinos are a bit too "sandbox" to me, so I haven't got one myself.


[...] but if you think im not gonna complete this you have something coming for you man.
Good for you.


[....] im not one of these "regular beginners".
This really presupposes that you know my definition of a "regular beginner" and coupled with the previous line, you seem to think that "regular beginners" doesn't reach their goals?


i respect your knowledge but dont respect that you assume.
Well, no knowledge without assumptions, but let's not bring Immanuel Kant into this  ;D

I base my assumptions on what data I get, just like anybody else.
Don't get insulted from that, your time and energy is so much better spent on learning what you need to finish your project.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline xkucoTopic starter

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2011, 06:45:19 PM »
so your saying i can build this without a controller ?? and could i use the same stuff ?? i have heard of arduino what is the difference between that and a servo?
and what setup do you recommend if i can still use the same motors

Offline waltr

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2011, 08:51:55 PM »
Quote
i have heard of arduino what is the difference between that and a servo?
15 seconds on Google will answer that question.

Offline Soeren

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2011, 09:23:19 PM »
Hi,

so your saying i can build this without a controller ??
I guess that is what "you actually can get it done without a controller." means.


and could i use the same stuff ??
The joystick and the motor drivers would still be needed. Further you'd need some components between the stick and the drivers.


i have heard of arduino what is the difference between that and a servo?
About the same as the difference between a bicycle and refrigerator.
Arduino is a microcontroller board, while a servo is a motor with attached closed loop circuitry and a gearbox.
Doesn't sound like you're paying much attention... Or using Google at all.


and what setup do you recommend if i can still use the same motors
Setup?

I'll ask you once more... How are your soldering skills and your "follow schematics" skills?

The safest way to get people to ignore you is by you ignoring them in the first place.
Sentences ending in a question mark (?) is something you should react upon with an answer.
Not answering a question is ignoring whoever wrote it.


A quote from a quite important book to ponder:
Quote from: I Ching
Mêng / Youthful Folly

It is not I who seek the young fool;
The young fool seeks me.
At the first oracle I inform him. If he asks two or three times, it is importunity.
If he importunes, I give him no information.
Perseverance furthers.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline xkucoTopic starter

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2011, 01:20:00 AM »
so about the ignorant answers i just responded without thinking and yes i have good soldering skills and schematic reading is ok. 

Offline Soeren

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Re: suggestions on pan/tilt motor.
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2011, 06:47:19 PM »
Hi,

[...] yes i have good soldering skills and schematic reading is ok. 

Took a bit due to family obligations, but This should do, used with the Joystick and the motors you selected. As I haven't actually build the circuit, minor adjustment may be needed , although I believe (presently at least :)) that I have taken all component tolerances into account
Do you feel up to it?

When build, let it boil for about 20 minutes and then adjust VR2 to output exactly 9.00V . Then adjust VR1 to 1.000V at Vref1, then it should work.

You can build and test the power supply, the reference voltage generator and the oscillator as separate entities and the two power stages can be finished and tested one by one, all in a modular approach - this should help make it easier to get it finished.
I'd recommend building them in the mentioned order, as this should help you get acquainted with it in stages.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

 


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