Author Topic: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine  (Read 1491 times)

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DevinC88

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 10
I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« on: August 16, 2011, 08:56:30 AM »
I want to put magnets in a circle with the same polarities pointing inward while there's another magnet spinning around in a circle rotating a motor creating electricity.  I want it to bring power to the battery and I can take it from there... but I'm not sure how to measure the output or what type/size of resistors and other misc. parts I'll need... any suggestions?

Soeren

• Supreme Robot
• Posts: 4,672
Re: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2011, 04:21:17 PM »
Hi,

I want to put magnets in a circle with the same polarities pointing inward [...]
What are you hoping to achieve that way?
If they all point the same way it will have no rotational effect.

while there's another magnet spinning around in a circle rotating a motor creating electricity.
Did you get the idea from an over unity/free energy web site?

What makes this other magnet spin?

If you spin it by hand, you could just as well loose all the magnets and spin the motor directly.
If you're thinking some magic will turn the motor, I have to disappoint you - your could hope for a really strong Coreolis Effect in your local area, but I doubt that it will even be able to make your eyes spin

Making a small vertical wind mill (google "Savonius Rotor") would be a realistic way of getting  power without you having to stir the pot manually.

I want it to bring power to the battery and I can take it from there...
You have to factor in the losses there will be in a system like this - The motor will give less power than it takes and the battery will only give out about 2/3 of what it took to charge it (and then there are other minor losses).

but I'm not sure how to measure the output or what type/size of resistors and other misc. parts I'll need... any suggestions?
You measure the output as voltage and current - when you have the numbers for open voltage and short circuit current, you can calculate the point of max. power transfer and/or calculate it for a certain voltage to make it charge the battery as optimally as possible.

Where do you need resistors and such. Are you planning  to build a voltage regulator for it?

Check out the Savonius, it will give you power from as little as 5m/s and it doesn't care about wind direction - One up is the Darrius rotor, which is able to run faster than the wind speed, as the blades are shaped somewhat like aeroplane wings, generating lift. Out of the two, the Savonius is the easy one to construct and you can find plans for several on the net.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

• Supreme Robot
• Posts: 611
Re: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2011, 06:49:42 PM »
Ahhh, free energy that violates the laws of physics.

So let me get this straight, there are a bunch of magnets pointing inward in a circle, then another two pole magnet spins in the middle freely?

Yeah that'll work

And DC motors are already magnetic electric engines... (depending on how you use the word "motor" and "engine")

DevinC88

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 10
Re: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2011, 12:08:55 PM »
I attatched a photo of my rough idea on how to get the magnet to spin... I just did that in paint in like 2 minutes so please forgive the lack of detail... the rotating magnet will pull towards the next magnet and push away from the last creating a constant spin.

I am planning on something a lot larger than a little R/C car... I'm thinking more full size.  just not sure on battery sizes or size of motors... etc

waltr

• Supreme Robot
• Posts: 1,944
Re: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2011, 12:20:08 PM »
Ok, post a video of this when you get it working.
We would like to see where the electricity comes from without wires.

DevinC88

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 10
Re: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2011, 12:54:10 PM »
what do you mean without wires?  I'm still planning on having everything hooked up... I just posted a basic diagram of the idea I had for getting the magnets to spin

Soeren

• Supreme Robot
• Posts: 4,672
Re: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2011, 06:12:55 PM »
Hi,

I attatched a photo of my rough idea on how to get the magnet to spin... [...] the rotating magnet will pull towards the next magnet and push away from the last creating a constant spin.
Overunity... You're wasting your time, if you think the magnet in the center is gonna spin without external input, even if you didn't have to drive a motor with it.

It should be very easy to verify, just build a model with only the magnets.
The magnets attracting and repelling will equate to (magnetic) friction and if you spin the center magnet by hand you'll feel it very clearly.

I see no reason to go in more detail about it, as I know you won't believe me, since you probably feel like you have just discovered something more important than the Rosetta Stone, so at least do this because you think it's fun and don't loose too much money, tears, hair or your girlfriend/wife on it.

Don't worry about measuring the output - there won't be any.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Daanii

• Robot Overlord
• Posts: 138
Re: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2011, 09:27:06 PM »
A guy in Japan named Minato built a motor exactly like this. He and his wife claim that they get more energy out of the Minato Motor than they put into it. A lot of people, including people from some big Japanese companies and the Japanese government, were convinced it was real. It was not.

A lot of other people have come up with similar things. Thane Heins with his Perepiteia device that Ottawa University thought promising enough to give lab space to for a few years. (The singer Neil Young also looked very carefully into this.)

And a little differently, a company called EEStor has been promising a new type of supercapacitor for years now, getting a big venture firm to invest and a big defense contractor to sign a licensing agreement. Not to mention a startup car company in Canada.

Both the Perepiteia device and the EESU are junk science.

There's no harm, I think, in pursuing these things. As Soeren says, just don't invest a lot of money or time that you cannot afford.

• Supreme Robot
• Posts: 611
Re: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2011, 04:12:57 AM »
...
There's no harm, I think, in pursuing these things. As Soeren says, just don't invest a lot of money or time that you cannot afford.

I can't believe so many people have invested time in this.

I've had the over unity conversation before and it's an extremely touchy one.  In reality, over unity is impossible.  Period.  Getting more energy out of something than you put in is impossible.  Think about it in a physics standpoint.  Where would the energy come from?  An alternate dimension?  Out of thin air?  It simply won't happen.  Energy has to come from somewhere!  The conservation of mass, matter and energy still applies.  However, people that believe in this type of thing KNOW they are right, and they will stand by their "theories" never actually trying to build the devices they claim will work.

Then they attack you saying that you're stifling their "research" and that looking into things like this is important.  No, trying to disprove the laws of physics is never a good investment, and it's a waste of time.  They are LAWS for a reason.  They  have been proven, over and over and over again.  Then they say that if we never research it we'll never know.  Yes, we will know.  It will not work.

Sorry, I get worked up over this crap and get really annoyed when people who have never studied science or physics think they have discovered the next great thing...

DevinC88

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 10
Re: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2011, 06:59:10 AM »
Not trying to create the next best thing... just trying to make it easier to drive to work without worry of running out of gas.  What if I used electromagnets?  switching the currents back and forth would allow change in a magnet possibly beside or beneath it.  You are right... I didn't study science or physics... that's why I'm here asking you.  Because if it's already been proven that my first idea wouldn't work... then you have saved me the time and trouble with that one.

rbtying

• Supreme Robot
• Posts: 452
Re: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2011, 07:56:43 AM »
Simple concept:

Energy in > energy out of any machine, due to inefficiency (nothing is 100% efficient). As such, you will never generate more energy than you use to make it.

Using electromagnets with permanent magnets to move a rotor is exactly how an electric motor works - so instead of running out of gas you'll run out of battery.

ofnature

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 21
Re: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2011, 08:13:08 AM »
If you haven't studied physics or any other kind of science involved, how do you expect to think of something people thoroughly trained in those subjects haven't?  Makes absolutely no sense.

Daanii

• Robot Overlord
• Posts: 138
Re: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2011, 04:47:10 PM »
Sorry, I get worked up over this crap and get really annoyed when people who have never studied science or physics think they have discovered the next great thing...

I can understand your annoyance. Still, I think it better that people pursue ideas like this, wrong though they may turn out to be, than play video games or have arguments on the Internet. At least this way they can learn something.

I admire people who put their ideas out for feedback. The inventor of the Segway, Dean Kamen, who is kind of a weird guy but also very smart, said something interesting:

"School teaches you how to fail; it doesn’t teach you how to succeed. To succeed you have to be willing to fail. You have to be willing to be ridiculed and the ridiculers will be right and it will hurt."

So try your magnets. And your motor. See what you can do. Why not?

• Supreme Robot
• Posts: 611
Re: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2011, 05:04:10 PM »
I can understand your annoyance. Still, I think it better that people pursue ideas like this, wrong though they may turn out to be, than play video games or have arguments on the Internet. At least this way they can learn something.

Sure, pursue ideas that are thoroughly thought out and planned.  Spend more time planning than you spend actually building, not the other way around.  A tiny little bit of somewhat simple math would show this idea will not work.  I'd say that it's much more important to learn the science behind our ideas and learn how to prove them right or wrong because then we can pursue things actually worth pursuing.

Do the work before hand, and save yourself time in the end.

Daanii

• Robot Overlord
• Posts: 138
Re: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2011, 06:57:24 PM »
If your goal is to make something that already exists, then I agreed with your approach, corrado33. Find out how others have done it, spend a lot of time planning, and then make the thing. That approach will save time and money.

But what if your goal is to make something new? Then I think you have to tinker and experiment. Fool around. Try new things. Even things that you think will not work.

Planning in that case is more a drawback than an asset. Why? Because if you look at the history of science, from engineering to medicine to geology, people first discover new ideas and only then figure out the science behind them.

How can you plan a path to somewhere if you do not know where you are going?

Soeren

• Supreme Robot
• Posts: 4,672
Re: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2011, 08:37:27 AM »
Hi,

But what if your goal is to make something new? Then I think you have to tinker and experiment. Fool around. Try new things. Even things that you think will not work.
Tinkering and experimenting does not exclude thinking and using apriori as well as experienced data.
As a matter of fact, even the wackiest inventor does exactly that; Using what's known is a compulsive behavior for all of mankind - even if you see lots of examples that seems to contradict that

That's a way to steer clear of most bad things - like a 5 year old that pinch a hand in a door because he held the edge of the door closing it... The next time he'll use the handle (if he's not deeply retarded, but then there's other patterns of behavior he'll try to avoid.
And anyone that tries a thing that he thinks will really not work is worse than the retarded kid, as he's acting against his better judgment.

Here's a couple of examples:
Jump off a 5 story building... You think that it'll have a bad outcome, but did you ever try.
Drive in the middle of the road, or better yet, drive in the wrong side...
Etc.

A very very very few things are discovered by accident (usually of the chemical persuasion), but for the rest of discoveries done by mankind, there's an idea, calculations (based in known physics etc.) to see whether it's worth your while and experiments only come after it turns out promising on paper.
What you're suggesting is something like this:
I don't think this 5 kg steel ball will fly if I glue feathers on it, so I'll just spend a few hours experimenting with it.

Planning in that case is more a drawback than an asset. Why? Because if you look at the history of science, from engineering to medicine to geology, people first discover new ideas and only then figure out the science behind them.
Yes. Idea -> Applying previously collected knowledge -> If still sound, break out your calculator, pen and paper -> If still sound, start experimenting etc.
The only time (longwinded) planning is bad, is when eg. someone is trapped under a tilted bookshelf. At all other times, planning is a must and we do a lot of it each day subconsciously.

How can you plan a path to somewhere if you do not know where you are going?
If you don't know where you're going, you're not gonna get there

People rarely achieves anything without a goal. Even a true kook that sets out to make a car run on water to save energy knows what he's striving for.
So the goal is known, but without knowing "how stuff behave", they skip the "apply known..." and "calculator" phases and start building.
Since they think that their confused thoughts will revolutionize the world and as such have placed themselves high up on a pedestal (made of ivory, no doubt), the simple fact that their experiments never lead to anything working doesn't really distract them unnecessarily and they starts yelling about this being such a refined topic that engineers/scientists/whatever simply doesn't understand the concepts (mostly after they have gained a fan base of equally thinking (or equally not thinking)).

And that's where they're actually right... I cannot fathom why anyone would think that he can get energy out of stirring an overgrown bucket of water (even if we don't consider the energy wasted by the stirring). And I find it hard to believe a single of the stories about oil companies that buys up inventions of car engines that doesn't use gas or electricity but runs thousand of miles on a slice of bread (or whatever) - If such existed, even the largest company on earth wouldn't be able to suppress it and why would they(?) They don't give a rats behind of where the money comes from and local supplies would be so much better than having to buy crude oil on a highly unstable market.

But we got really sidetracked here, so back on subject:
Not trying to create the next best thing... just trying to make it easier to drive to work without worry of running out of gas.
It may not sound as glorious as inventing a magnetic propulsion system, but most people solves this the easy way, by hauling a good old jerrycan brim full of potential energy
I bet you can get back and forth more than once with 20 liters of gasoline in the trunk, or you seriously need to change either your car or your working place
Filling your tank as often as possible should work too and have the added benefit of keeping the tank from rusting on the inside (and in turn grind the motor down faster when it enters the EFI/carburetor and the combustion chamber).

All the time you save this way could be used on projects with likely outcome, or you can just see it as generally gaining a week or a month of lifetime

What if I used electromagnets?  switching the currents back and forth would allow change in a magnet possibly beside or beneath it.
Yes, you could get it to turn that way (if everything is placed and timed for it), but you'd spend more energy than you got back.

Whenever you convert energy, there will be a conversion loss, which is turned into heat.
The amount of energy always remains the same, so when you "split'" the input into usable energy and heat, it's like if you take a 1 liter bottle and fills a cup with shaky hands. The amount that hit the table is loss and I'm sure that you wouldn't think that, whatever strange method you used to fill the cup, you would somehow get more than 1 liter into the cup (use a size D for that experiment  ).

Some may argue that we can do work without energy input, but we can't - we just store our "fuel" and can work on that for a long time.
What about our fuel/food then, how can it give energy without getting any energy. It can't, it get's its energy from nutrients in the soil and more important, from the sun.
The sun then... Well, it's just like any other "motor" and when it, some day (in a very distant future) runs out of fuel, mankind, if existing at that time, is royally screwed.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

DevinC88

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 10
Re: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2011, 02:22:29 PM »
wow... talk about a discussion board.  ok... I know I haven't studied anything that pertains to this area of interest.  I'm not saying that I know much of anything to do with this subject.  That's why I came here... for help on the topic from people that do know.

Einstein dropped out of school.

Edison and Tesla worked together.
Edison "experimented" by trying things without knowledge if it would work or not before doing any math or graphs to make sure.
Tesla did do his math and research and who's the one that came up with AC over DC.  Tesla

Here's the deal... I pretty much just want to know how to turn my vehicle into one that doesn't use gas... I'll charge it if I have to... but I just want to get away from the gas station.  I was throwing a couple of ideas that I had in my mind on how to get it to work without knowledge if it could work... I knew that going in to this.  I wanted feedback because I needed feedback.  I don't know how to make these type of things work... I wish I did... but I don't.  That's why my title says beginner... because I am.  Sorry if I'm coming off stupid to you guys who spend most of your time doing this sort of thing... but I'm not one of them... and I'm ok with that as long as I can get help from others who spend their time doing it... I'll help in areas that I know well... but this type of stuff... not my forte.

• Supreme Robot
• Posts: 611
Re: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2011, 05:35:22 PM »
The reason we're being so negative it because what you are asking to do is impossible.  And no, not the "impossible" where if you try REALLY hard it'll happen, it's the "impossible" that is physically against the laws of nature.

The truth is, there is no "kook" way to save gas.  If there was, the automotive companies wouldn't be HIDING it, they'd be USING it to get a leg up on their competition.  And it's not financially smart to buy a new car to get better gas mileage.

However, buying a used car that gets better mileage than yours that you don't have to go upside down on would probably be the best thing to do.

If your car is a diesel, you could turn it into a biodiesel, but if it was a diesel you wouldn't be having MPG troubles.

The BEST way to save gas it to change your driving habits.  Stay off the brake, accelerate slowly.  Try to drive as if you had a brick under the gas pedal.  Don't tailgate, don't treat the gas and brake as a "switch".  They aren't on or off, there is a LOT of grey area.  If you drive a stick keep it in gear going down hills and engine brake.  When you are engine braking, your engine is using NO fuel.  Gravity is keeping it running.  If you simply had the clutch in, gas would have to be used to keep the engine idling.  Try to stay at 55 (or whatever speed your car gets the best mileage at) most of the time.  Look up hypermiling techniques.  I don't suggest following most of them (as they are mostly crazy), but you'll get a good idea on how to drive MPG consciously.  Hypermiling is good on gas, but bad on the rest of your car.  Sure taking a corner at 50 MPH will save you momentum and in turn gas, but it'll kill your tires more quickly.  Therefore you'd have to replace them sooner, negating any money you saved by hypermiling.  It's all about finding the "sweet spot" in the middle.

Also, do the normal maintenance on your car.  Change the oil, air filter, plugs, maybe wires etc.  If you don't keep up on this stuff, you're probably getting worse mileage than you could.  Since you have a truck, you might want to look into the different things you can put on the bed to get better mileage.  (They did it on mythbusters, I forget which one was best.  Tailgate down was one of the worst.)  IIRC, the fully enclosed bed with a hinge up top thingy was the best.  That or a net tailgate thing.  Honestly just look it up.

DevinC88

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 10
Re: I want to make an magnetic-electric engine
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2011, 02:12:25 PM »
I work at a car dealership in sales... not trying to buy a car anytime soon... the one I have works and gets 30+ MPGs... just trying to see if I could do anything differently