Author Topic: 1/F noise amplification  (Read 1181 times)

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Offline Mad MIRTopic starter

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1/F noise amplification
« on: December 24, 2011, 03:11:35 AM »
Hi guys I've reading "The Lost Journals of Tesla" and it really made me want to make a device that can tune into1/F noise. I don't really have experience in RF circuits but if I'm tuning into noise how hard can it be? Could someone please guide me in the right direction, like a webisite or some pointers? that would be really helpful! I did try Google but to no avail.

Thanking you in advance,
 - Mad Mir

Offline Soeren

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Re: 1/F noise amplification
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2011, 06:53:38 AM »
Hi,

Hi guys I've reading "The Lost Journals of Tesla" and it really made me want to make a device that can tune into1/F noise. I don't really have experience in RF circuits but if I'm tuning into noise how hard can it be?
Perhaps I don't understand what you want to do (or why), but "corner noise" (as noise in general) is extremely wideband, so I'd rather call it to tune out to, if anything.
You can tune into a specific bandwidth, but it continues up to daylight, so I guess I don't get what it is you want to do?

If you explain it a little further, perhaps I can help :)
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
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Offline Mad MIRTopic starter

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Re: 1/F noise amplification
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2011, 01:03:08 PM »
hmm good call, I'll look into it and get back to you, soon hopefully :D !

Offline Mad MIRTopic starter

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Re: 1/F noise amplification
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2011, 01:13:25 PM »
Check this out, its called a "gravity wave detector" and is actually what I wanted to build.

Here are some schemmy's:




 

Do you think I can use any op amp chip for IC2? and what do I use for IC1?

source: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/tesla/esp_tesla_11.htm

thanks!


Offline Soeren

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Re: 1/F noise amplification
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2011, 11:45:27 AM »
Hi,

Check this out, its called a "gravity wave detector" and is actually what I wanted to build.

Oh, fringe "science"...

Always amusing to see the results of old age leading into pseudo science and the paranormal or its cousins - but too bad, that many of those that venture off those limbs, present it with their "experience" (read: age) as a motor for sounding authoritative - Sadly, it happened to Tony vanRoon (gone but never forgotten! - No Tony, my abnormal sleeping patterns is not from reading John Connolly ;)) as well in his later years, where he started chasing free energy ideas, although he sure knew better in his working years - I hope it's not a given process, to start believing the paranormal as the brain deteriorates, but if it happens to me, I hope I'll amuse as much as I've been amused over the years :)


Do you think I can use any op amp chip for IC2? and what do I use for IC1?

Yes, you can use whatever op-amp you like.
It's not HF-circuits. The capacitor at the input, together with parasitic elements makes up the "receiver antenna", which is band limited, but fairly wide. Then there's some crude 3dB LP filtering at the outputs. The first circuit seems to be a pain, with 2 potentiometers and 1 variable resistor *sigh*
They're in essence what I call Radio Moscow receivers... With Radio Moscow filtered out.
I sure wouldn't associate my name with any those circuits ;D


I found a text mentioning that the range up to 300Hz is what they're after, probably because they weren't able to dig signals out of the white noise specter at higher frequencies (noisy circuits, lack of technique or whatever)

I also found another of these gizmos, one that makes a bit more sense when used for research...

(Click pic for high resolution)
The cap (Cx) over the Rf is a smarter way of achieving LP filtering, as it's then cut out of the amplification, leaving more headroom for the frequencies of interest and the simple AC-or-DC output gets it into a slightly more serious domain, however simple it is.
If you need more amplification (those Martians speak very softly ;)), just add an op-amp coupled as a low frequency audio amp.

A few things worth noting:
All such circuits will be very noisy, as the feedback resistor is large (to get a high gain) and large resistors produce more thermal noise.
The gain of the op-amp varies with the frequency of the input.
Max gain available from an op-amp is GBW/fmax (you find the GBW in the datasheet for the op-amp you use).
Your results will vary a lot with your building method (a solderless proto-board may give different results from day to day, depending on orientation, how near you are to the circuit, humidity of the air, temperature etc.).

Unless you're really sure about finding intelligent extra-terrestrial life, I wouldn't bother, but OTOH you may gain some valuable insight into op-amps by building one.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline Mad MIRTopic starter

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Re: 1/F noise amplification
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2011, 01:09:14 PM »
Thanks alot Soeren your posts are always very helpful!
 I guess I'll give this a shot just for fun this winter break and *hopefully* I will get some pleasing results, however I'm not really expecting anything other than static. I think I'll go with your schem, looks ALOT simpler.

Hey hey hey, im not senile just yet! I'm in my late teens! Well quite frankly i think its a good thing im getting all this "fringe science" stuff out of my system right now!

Will post if I find anything interesting,
Thanks again!

- Mad Mir

Offline Soeren

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Re: 1/F noise amplification
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2011, 02:26:32 PM »
Hi,

I think I'll go with your schem, looks ALOT simpler.
It's not mine!   :o


Hey hey hey, im not senile just yet! I'm in my late teens! Well quite frankly i think its a good thing im getting all this "fringe science" stuff out of my system right now!
Practicing for old age?  ;D

Nah, I wasn't referring to you. From my observations kooky ideas are presented by old men and their age somehow impress the young into believing their ideas. Not saying you do though, but I have seen plenty of youngsters savagely defending old mens ideas, no matter how far out they were.
On another forum, a number of years ago, a young guy wanted help with making a "wish amplifier" and after endless posts from a lot of people besides me, he went away angry, as he had been "warned that engineers just wouldn't understand the concepts" - The site where he found it had drawings of a regular Hi-Fi amp with the speaker cables going to some metal plates as an antenna and claimed that if you sat next to it and wished something it would be fulfilled.
A little funny - a lot sad.


Will post if I find anything interesting,
You do that :)

But if you find sequences of apparently systematic behavior, do check the direction, as it's highly likely that you may receive industrial noise, subharmonics from transmitters of all kinds and refrigerators with mechanical thermostats etc.

You could even try to use it near a digital circuit to get a measure of its LF emission.
Experiment, experiment, experiment ;D
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline Mad MIRTopic starter

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Re: 1/F noise amplification
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2011, 03:35:46 AM »
Quote
It's not mine!

Yeaa I know, was just refeerring to the schem You gave me :D


Quote
On another forum, a number of years ago, a young guy wanted help with making a "wish amplifier" and after endless posts from a lot of people besides me, he went away angry, as he had been "warned that engineers just wouldn't understand the concepts" - The site where he found it had drawings of a regular Hi-Fi amp with the speaker cables going to some metal plates as an antenna and claimed that if you sat next to it and wished something it would be fulfilled.
A little funny - a lot sad.


A wish amplifier? now you have to agree that is a LITTLE bit more absurd than my idea :P


Quote
But if you find sequences of apparently systematic behavior, do check the direction, as it's highly likely that you may receive industrial noise, subharmonics from transmitters of all kinds and refrigerators with mechanical thermostats etc.

HAHAHA i can totally imagine myself running around my house and all over town looking for sources of interference XD

Quote
Experiment, experiment, experiment ;D


will do soeren! thanks alot!

I found this pretty interesting too: http://amasci.com/freenrg/grav3.html , take a look - IF YOU DARE XD!

Offline Soeren

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Re: 1/F noise amplification
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2011, 10:34:51 AM »
Hi,

Quote
It's not mine!

A wish amplifier? now you have to agree that is a LITTLE bit more absurd than my idea :P

OK, a little ;D
Nah, a lot.


Quote
It's not mine!

I found this pretty interesting too: http://amasci.com/freenrg/grav3.html , take a look - IF YOU DARE XD!

Oh, im a real dare devil  8)
I have read a number of Hodowanecs ramblings and find them interesting from the perspective of of what I loosely term "propaganda analysis" - I've still not made up my mind about whether he was a fraud or just a misguided (self-inflicted) soul, but AFAIK, he didn't have any basis for his obscure theories.

Perhaps you might be interested in this as well ;D
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline Mad MIRTopic starter

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Re: 1/F noise amplification
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2011, 07:09:05 AM »
LOL i actually already had the 4 mile microphone page open in another tab! hmmm, maybe we'll never knw, or maybe its just a cover up, or maybe its not worth the effort debating over!

 


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