Mechanics and Construction > Mechanics and Construction
Building My 1st Robot
rodstar:
--- Quote from: Soeren on July 30, 2012, 04:25:10 PM ---Your argument about being limited to existing libraries is pure baloney and just shows that you really don't understand all that much about programming - nothing stops you from using library functions for some of the code, your own HL code for the rest and when you grow hair on your chest sometime, you'll do the same, intermingling libraries (made by you or others) with plain code, just directly on the iron.
--- End quote ---
From time to time appear this kind of arrogant snippy pert Arduino pets.
Arduino is focused to people who won't spend time for programming. Artists, whatever... anything but programmers or electricians (sorry my english), that's the slogan.
If someone programs a library then he is beyond the aim of Arduino: sell their cheap weak boards at high price to many lots of people (noobs are the most). I must recognize they did a great bussiness model. I congratulate them.
I'm not against Arduino, I just say it's preset to elemental high level programming (if you know what high level programming means) unless you code a library.
When a project doesn't match that pre-made library then you program your own library. When I develop a robotic system I worry about efficiency and trusty coding that will make a quality product. So ASM (low level language) under C++ are my developing languages to achieve high end multitasking, hard to do with the "delay (50)" stupidity... to say something.
Arduino is made for the non programmer, non electronic, non electric. So it's made for noobs. It's a fact. It's just for fast prototyping, when efficiency or resource tunning is not a need.
So I warn this guy so he has the information to be open minded to know the limitations and stuff about Arduino.
I laugh at you, Soeren, you saying "shows that you really don't understand all that much about programming" or "when you grow hair on your chest sometime" ... well, god has made all kind of funny ignorant and pert creatures... so let them make noise, bite, bark and jump around over and over disturbing the neighborhood.
Soeren:
--- Quote from: rodstar on July 30, 2012, 08:40:50 PM ---
--- Quote from: Soeren on July 30, 2012, 04:25:10 PM ---Your argument about being limited to existing libraries is pure baloney and just shows that you really don't understand all that much about programming - nothing stops you from using library functions for some of the code, your own HL code for the rest and when you grow hair on your chest sometime, you'll do the same, intermingling libraries (made by you or others) with plain code, just directly on the iron.
--- End quote ---
From time to time appear this kind of arrogant snippy pert Arduino pets.
Arduino is focused to people who won't spend time for programming. Artists, whatever... anything but programmers or electricians (sorry my english), that's the slogan.
--- End quote ---
Are we debating the original goals of the Arduino or can we move to the present?
--- Quote from: rodstar on July 30, 2012, 08:40:50 PM ---If someone programs a library then he is beyond the aim of Arduino:
--- End quote ---
Sounds like you'd like to be in charge of who are allowed to use Arduinos?
Wake up and smell the coffee... Arduino is used in lots of engineering facilities.
Why on earth do you argue that Arduinos are only about either using libraries or writing libraries - it's a microcontroller board, plain and simple and how it's controller is programmed is up to the user pushing the keys... No more, no less.
--- Quote from: rodstar on July 30, 2012, 08:40:50 PM ---I'm not against Arduino,
--- End quote ---
You could have fooled me!
--- Quote from: rodstar on July 30, 2012, 08:40:50 PM ---I just say it's preset to elemental high level programming (if you know what high level programming means) unless you code a library.
--- End quote ---
Lemme see... Perhaps it is vaguely related to what I described as a HL language... Nes pas?
If you divert your eyes towards how Arduinos are used outside what your prejudgement dictates, you may get a different opinion.
Do you know what language Arduinos are programmed in??
You sound like using a HLL is a bad thing, but you do it yourself - probably for most of your code - I'm missing some consequence here.
--- Quote from: rodstar on July 30, 2012, 08:40:50 PM ---When a project doesn't match that pre-made library then you program your own library.
--- End quote ---
Either that, or you just write the code needed - why this obsession with libraries as the only option on Arduinos?
Any microcontroller today have several HLL's and any microcontroller can use libraries or not, as the user chooses - don't confuse a board layout with the microcontroller.
--- Quote from: rodstar on July 30, 2012, 08:40:50 PM ---When I develop a robotic system I worry about efficiency and trusty coding that will make a quality product.
--- End quote ---
Don't we all, at least... We The Engineers.
--- Quote from: rodstar on July 30, 2012, 08:40:50 PM ---So ASM (low level language) under C++ are my developing languages to achieve high end multitasking, hard to do with the "delay (50)" stupidity... to say something.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, and well documented, easy read, code is for kids, right? ;)
Which microcontrollers do you program multitasking on in C++ by the way?
And what kind of multitasking?
(Just curious here).
--- Quote from: rodstar on July 30, 2012, 08:40:50 PM ---Arduino is made for the non programmer, non electronic, non electric. So it's made for noobs. It's a fact. It's just for fast prototyping, when efficiency or resource tunning is not a need.
--- End quote ---
So, Art-people and whoever else you deem acceptable Arduino users are noobs by default... Interesting viewpoint.
Being an electronics engineer, I'm sure mighty glad that I never touched an Arduino, or you'd really come down on me I'm sure ;) 8080's COSMACs, Z80, 65xx, 68xx, 80x86, ARM, PIC, Atmel, etc. etc. etc. and soon (I hope) an XMOS, but not a single Arduino, as I have found most other cores better suited to my needs for the last decade (plus I prefer to make my own boards).
This doesn't stop me from being in touch with reality though and the reality is that Arduino is found in lots of tech facilities.
--- Quote from: rodstar on July 30, 2012, 08:40:50 PM ---So I warn this guy so he has the information to be open minded to know the limitations and stuff about Arduino.
--- End quote ---
You warn him against Arduino, but claim that you're not against it... How does that compute?
How well do you really know the Arduino?
Did you ever had one in your hands (go wash your hands immediately ;D)?
Do you know the ChipKit32 board at all?
(Which besides its Arduino code compatibility is a real power house, can do all the UBW32 can, same controller, but with more I/O, a 10/100 Ethernet and dual CAN controllers and a good support from Microchip and the dedicated support forum (and what seems to be of a better build quality) - all at less than $10 over the UBW32 - I know where I'd throw my money, if I ever was to buy either).
Newbies cannot afford a lot of openmindedness in that respect. They struggle to find the least chaotic way into controllers - and lo and behold, if it isn't a system where thousands, or even millions can help them with source code snippets and such. their further venture into controllers or not will be a personal choice for each, but with a softer learning curve start, lots more people get into any subject.
It's just like the OS that we all love to hate... If it wasn't for the Windows OS (at least from Ver3, ver. 1 was ugly and unusable and sold next to nothing), a PC would probably cost 20 to 50 times of what it does now (a company I worked for in the eighties sold PC's, amongst more high tech stuff and a usable equipped PC-AT went for the equivalent of US$10,000 although I got a 50% employee discount :) It was shortly after I bought that AT, that Windows ver. 1 was released), all because of a large customer base, which again has lead to a lot of businesses (both SW and HW) that wouldn't have existed, had Windows not been around.
--- Quote from: rodstar on July 30, 2012, 08:40:50 PM ---I laugh at you, Soeren, you saying "shows that you really don't understand all that much about programming" or "when you grow hair on your chest sometime" ... well, god has made all kind of funny ignorant and pert creatures...
--- End quote ---
Happy to amuse you. And the ignorants, like those claiming that the Arduino can only be programmed using libraries? Laugh at them all you want as well, I know I do ;)
And just for good measures, let me state that I haven't ever, nor do I plan to at any time in the future, used any Arduino, although there may be one or two "by-products" that' might be interesting for some apps.
And further... I have programmed microprocessors and microcontrollers since the early seventies and I have never (and nor do I expect to ever), see(n) a core that couldn't be programmed in assembler, no matter what board it was fitted in - the early cores OTOH didn't have any HLL's at all ;)
(Perhaps this belongs better in "Misc". I hope the OP is not scared too far off the subject)
rodstar:
Really, yesterday I joined this forum to help people. I wont spend my free time to play ping pong with a fanatic troll.
My recomendation is that if he wants to play piano with both hands, then study and practice the technique, not just press the play button... and just play the single melody with a finger in the right hand.
Going to the root of this thread the guy asks for his 1st robot... the main line is that if this guy (PhyroHydrous) want to get introduced to robotics he should start learning to program in a real compiler to understand how a microcontroller works from the roots.
Of course if he just wants to do basic things for the weekend and stay there, then Arduino mainframe will be his perfect match.
The Arduino catch is to use libraries to get easy and fast "programming" to get non programmers or noob (or "novice" if "noob" offends you (soren)) programmers get a running application. Of course you can do the same without libraries writing your own code, but if your gonna write your own code, why Arduino, a free non professional compiler? It's like trying to cook healthy food in a McDonald's kitchen. Better you use a pro compiler.
My point is exposed, enough said. Good luck.
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