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Author Topic: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?  (Read 2950 times)

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Offline MaltiKTopic starter

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Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« on: January 12, 2009, 04:37:13 PM »
A former hacker, Joe Grand, and co-host of Discovery Channel's new show, Prototype this, has a two day course once a month about reverse engineering, called "Hands-On Hardware Hacking and Reverse Engineering Techniques". I thought it would be interested, and now that hes coming to the D.C area, I think I might go.

'09 Black Hat DC Briefings and Training
Hyatt Regency Crystal City
Crystal City, VA
Febuary 16


SOURCE Boston 2009
Seaport Hotel
Boston, MA
Mar 09


'09 Black Hat Europe Briefings and Training
Movenpick Amsterdam
Amsterdam, Netherlands
Apr 14

'09 Black Hat USA Briefings and Training
Caesars Palace
Las Vegas, NV
Jul 25



Its around $1,000 to go to the black hat conventions (they are really big), not including accommodations, but the other events are most likely smaller, and I was wondering if anyone else would be interested in these.
He is supposedly a world renowned ex-hacker (l0pht), and a very bright EE.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 04:36:49 AM by MaltiK »
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Offline Webbot

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2009, 08:01:28 PM »
Sorry MaltiK but I can't get too excited about people who make a living by ripping off other peoples code. I'm a BIG believer in open source etc but at the end of the day some of us have to make a living by writing code. When people reverse engineer it (often 100% against the terms and conditions) in order to make a profit for themselves, or to pass into the community where others may do the same, then they are 'blood suckers'.

I used to write computer games back in the 70's and then, just like now, people were always trying to find ways to copy the games so that they could sell them on and take all the profit with the author receiving nothing. Copyright laws were notoriously dubious. But if the authors get no money then they go bust, then the pirates have nothing to copy and everyone looses.

So if you, and lots of others,  pay your 'gigantic' $1,000 then hopefully Joe Grand will be able to train himself to get a proper job. Spend that money on learning someful useful and honest.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh - but these people really are just the scum of the earth - total parasites.

I'm normally very open minded - but if you feel like questioning and replying to what I have said then, I'm sorry, but you'll get no response from me. I've been effected by these thieves.
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Offline MaltiKTopic starter

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2009, 04:36:16 AM »
Alright then, well Japan, Korea, and many other Asian countries have never contributed to the world, then to reverse engineer already made products, and improve upon them, they are not parasites? Many of Japan's improvements have assisted our later inventions, and so deeming them useful. In my opinion, as long as you don't make a profit from the direct (unchanged) product reverse engineered, which is what this is, profitless, then its all good. Many reverse engineer just to figure out how it works, without any monetary benefits, is that so wrong? I agree, when your talking about source code, but not hardware, because theres more to learn from REing hardware and electronics than code.
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Offline cosminprund

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2009, 05:24:50 AM »
The fact that, in your opinion, some country/corporation/person didn't "contribute to the world" doesn't give you - or anyone else - any rights on the intellectual property they produced! Is the world using the products they invented/innovated? Clearly yes! That's a grate contribution!

This being said there's nothing wrong with Reverse Engineering in general and it's something most people on this list do without thinking about it: When you "hack" a toy tank to turn it into an threaded robot you're both hacking and reverse engineering. Things only get complicated when that reverse engineering ends up costing the copyright owner - that's not right.

Giving an former thief the aura of an grate EE because he was once an grate hacker is not right because it makes everyone attending to the given course an complice to the act. It's like buying stolen products: everyone condemns thieves yet some of us manage to buy stolen goods, knowing they're stolen goods (you know a product is stolen when it's sold too cheap). Things get even more complicated by the fact that he's lecturing on how to HACK stuff and how to REVERSE ENGENEER stuff! If he was lecturing on how to prevent your stuff from being reverse engineered or hacked you might say he's probably payed his dept to society and he's now making a positive contribution.

Producing some IP and seeing it stolen is painfull, I've been there (well... I am there).

Offline Soeren

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2009, 11:18:03 AM »
Oh, chill out. Kingpin isn't a baddie.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
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Offline cosminprund

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2009, 01:20:56 PM »
Oh, chill out. Kingpin isn't a baddie.

Well I'm always overreacting when I'm dealing with IP and copyright stuff. There are too many people on forums taking pirated software too easy and talking about it as it's the most natural thing in the world. This was only marginally related to pirate software but hey, it was an opportunity to say what I've got to say.

Offline Soeren

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2009, 02:31:50 PM »
Say NO to drugs!

(Hey, now that the [soap]box is open, I had to get my say too ;))
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline HDL_CinC_Dragon

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2009, 07:23:31 PM »
Its a black hat convention. Hence, they take stuff to make their own profit or just to cause problems for other people. If you think otherwise as to what a black hat might be simply do a google search for "define: black hat".

I agree with what Webbot is saying but I also agree that reverse engineering doesnt have to be bad.
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Offline Admin

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2009, 07:41:01 AM »
In language we can understand:

If everyone pirates, instead of buys, a book about robotics - guess what, the author will never write a book on robotics again. Of course you save $15 or whatever, but you lose out on the huge wealth of knowledge from the books the author could have published. He probably spent a year of his life writing that book, giving up weekends to be in front of his PC typing away.

If you pirate, instead of buy, robotics software - the company that made the software might go bankrupt and stop producing new and better software. Programmers aren't cheap! Ok so I'm not saying buy $5k software for an at home project, but most software isn't more than $100.

When making my Axon microcontroller, I invested several thousand dollars and 6+ months just for designing and prototyping and coding. Not to mention the 10's of thousands needed to manufacture it (not joking, it was really expensive) and the support I give in the forum. If the design was pirated, and I lose money or make very little, I wouldn't make another awesome robot product for anyone. ;D


Most importantly, you should encourage the companies/people that benefit you to benefit you again in the future. If you can't financially (aka poor student), give them free advertising on your site, tell others to buy their products, write free open source code for them, mail them a free Axon, etc. Or promise yourself you'll buy a legal version when you have the money - after all, you want them to make better products for you in the future!

Offline Soeren

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2009, 08:57:43 AM »
Hi.

Its a black hat convention. Hence, they take stuff to make their own profit or just to cause problems for other people. If you think otherwise as to what a black hat might be simply do a google search for "define: black hat".
Sorry, but the phrases white hat and black hat hackers have been so destroyed in the nineties, where the blackest sometimes termed themselves white hats to avoid some flack and a good deal of white hats did the opposite to sound tough or whatever, not to mention the crackers, the phreakers etc. etc.
Some apparently still use the term Black Hat since they know it gets youngsters attention.

I would think kingpin (or KiNGPiN if you want the oldskool L33T typing) more a cracker than a hacker back in the days, but I assume he's not getting away with learning people to break into other peoples computers etc., so I think you can relax ;)
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline HDL_CinC_Dragon

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2009, 03:13:46 PM »
1) Im totally relaxed... well... I have a lot of other stuff in life to worry about but not this stuff :)
2) Yeah I realize hes probably not making any kind of special profit other than getting paid to speak at these events but the people hes teaching stuff to may very well be
3) I never really knew of Kingpin :P
4) Yeah I realize white hat and black hat have been pretty much ruined as far as people using them for different credit reasons but still. They do technically still have the same definitions as theyve always had. And anyone who is a white hat who claims to be a black hat just make themselves look tough are weak. White hats arnt weak

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Offline TrickyNekro

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2009, 06:50:39 PM »
Look... Piracy is just a controversial issue.... While companies do not want it as hell... It's accepted among many many many people....
And there are many reason why...
Take a look at a student... that has no money... That he get's by not easily... and downloads a math program or anything else...
He wants to study!!! And he needs some programs... So he downloads them...
An other thing... Think of Microsoft... this very big bubble that even enforces us to buy this ##### Vista....
cause I need a laptop as a university student... and not many companies other costume build laptops... So almost EVERY NEW LAPTOP HAS
THE ###### VISTA!!!! AND yes I'm shooting....
So why not to get Word or other Microsoft thingies for free???? Why? They are just taking so many many many fu#### money from companies
and we are students!!!!
Why Linux is Free??? Why Linux is far better.... The only thing you can't do with Linux is playing games.... But, when even more serious programmers
get involved emulator will come easy!!!

Also... So other things.... Ok, I admit I download a lot!!! But the point is why???
There are two main reason for that...
ONE.... I have no money....
TWO... I want to ##### try it first... Why to pay for a bad product... For a bad game....


And some other things....
WHY THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE OUT THERE OFFERING THEIR KNOWLEDGE FOR FREE???
Why, so many people join the free for all!!! Some, like me, feel the need of copyrighting their work only to prevent
others to commercially exploit their work!!!
WHY SO MANY HUGE COMPANIES LIKE MICROSOFT SAY THE THE FREE MOVEMENT IS A BAD THING???
And I'm not talking about piracy.... I'm talking about the GNU!!!
 
People with little money should be supported by the community not selling their minds and ideas...
I don't know.... really...
What I know is that everything I'll be making and dim it worth a while will be posted on the net....

Sorry for shouting...

Best Regards,
Lefteris, Greece :-\
For whom the interrupts toll...


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Offline Webbot

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2009, 07:54:26 PM »
Hey TrickyNero - I'm not against downloading. If you want to publish your own stuff on the net for others to use free of charge then good for you. Equally: if you download stuff that others have made available for free then that is also fine.

Take MS-Office. Microsoft have spent a fortune developing this and most will now say that it is bloated with functionality that most people don't need.  However: this doesn't mean that it is okay to download a license crack to allow you to use their software for free. If you want 'free' then use the free OpenOffice from Sun. This reproduces most of the Office functionality - which is great for us. But, when you think about it, Sun are replicating MSOffice because they recognize that most of the world uses MSOffice. If Microsoft stop adding to Office then OpenOffice will have no 'market leader' to follow - so they will just go their own way.

So Sun may be reproducing the same functionality - but they are writing it from scratch. They aren't ripping off any Microsoft code.

There's a lot of other great free, or open source code, out there. Knowledge for free (but ONLY because the author decides to make it free).

What I'm protesting about is the stealing of software/hardware designs. I think you've posted a lot of stuff about battery monitoring. What if I wait until that is all settled, then I produce a card (using your design), I take all of the money, rather than acknowledge you I tell you to stop infringing my copyright or else I'll take you to court. Are you happy now?

I love your hippy attitude, seriously. Unfortunately theres a big commercial world out there filled with people who are happy to make money from your ideas and at your expense.
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Offline TrickyNekro

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2009, 10:07:45 PM »
You are right.... As you've seen I have a post already in MISC....

But here is my point of view.... Really I respect you, for your opinions on this site, but I gotta disagree...
Microsoft.... a "I hate free stuff company".....
I once heard that even Patriot Missiles use software written from Microsoft.... Let alone deals with counties companies and all that....
I really enjoy Linux... for writing some docs.... But I have format problems so far.... So I only do error correction...

I'm a student and this is what Microsoft MUST respect... I have little money.... I have no regular job.... So... Make it free for us!!!
And I'm only talking about students, not companies....

I don't like stealing too.... But there is only one reason for this... There are no ethics in stealing....
It's like robin hood.... After all.... You aren't gonna steal from a guy, that makes little money...
But if you steal let's say from Microsoft.... I don't really believe someone is left out of his office.... really....

That's from me!!!
Best Regards,
Lefteris
For whom the interrupts toll...


P.S. I've been inactive for almost a year... Don't give promises but I'll try to complete my tutorials. I'll let you know when..

Cheers!

Offline Admin

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2009, 12:26:39 AM »
TrickyNekro, until people are willing to work really hard without pay, companies will be based on profiting. :P
If a company cannot profit, they won't bother developing an awesome product, and everyone loses.

I recommend you looking at the business model called 'Freemium'. It basically states that a company gives away something for free to 95% of their customers, where the other 5% are willing to pay to get extra.

SoR is based on the freemium model. ;D

Offline cosminprund

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2009, 04:42:31 AM »
Microsoft.... a "I hate free stuff company".....

They don't really hate free stuff. In fact they got into a lot of trouble for offering Internet Explorer free, didn't they :D They want to get rid of the competition and that's a healthy attitude for a company, don't you think? I'm sure they have no problem with people writing free software for Windows ;)

Quote
I once heard that even Patriot Missiles use software written from Microsoft.

Have no idea about that, but why would that be a bad thing? Would you like your missiles ran on open source software developed by hobbyists or professional programmers in there free time?

Quote
I really enjoy Linux... for writing some docs.... But I have format problems so far.... So I only do error correction...

Are you talking about Open Office here? Here's my opinion on Open Office: You can probably do *anything* with it - given time! But hey, time is money: I gave it a try, when I realised I was fighting the editor most of the time I bought Ms Office. This just goes to show how good Microsoft Office is! And don't get me wrong, I think Open Office is an GRATE product! They went soooo far - but not far enough, not yet.

About Linux and Open Source software in general. I'd be *very* curious how much of that software is actually written by professional programmers in weekends! I'm sure it's a huge chunk - universities do write Open Source software but University-originated software is usually at the "proof-of-concept" stage and needs a bit more work to make it practical for Joe Average.

Quote
I'm a student and this is what Microsoft MUST respect... I have little money.... I have no regular job.... So... Make it free for us!!!
And I'm only talking about students, not companies....

So use the free/lite versions of the Ms development tools and use the Student version of Ms Office! I bet the "Home and Student" version of Ms Office costs less then your monthly internet connection :)

Quote
But if you steal let's say from Microsoft.... I don't really believe someone is left out of his office.... really....

Did hear about the layoffs at Microsoft? Apparently they're laying off thousands of people!

Offline HDL_CinC_Dragon

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2009, 02:46:41 PM »
I hate MS to be honest. Yeah ill be keeping Windows XP for as long as I can but thats because I play a lot of games. I refuse to downgrade to Vista. Worst. OS. Ever. MS isnt even keeping Vista. Theyre dropping that piece of crap and replacing it with Windows 7. I hope so dearly that they learned a freaking lesson...

I pretty much steal from MS every chance I get as long as Ill actually use the product. I know im going to hell for it but I really dont care. Im sick of dealing with MS's bull ****. If I could reach through the phone and ***** slap them a few times I would sure as hell do it. Im never calling them again for assistance on anything because theyre just going to tell me to go buy this $289305 program and pay this $21348 fee and theyll put me on hold to pay the $875324 fee for a guy who cant speak English to tell me something I either already knew or was completely irrelevant to my problem. God I ****ing hate their bull ****....
ok im done venting that...

I dont really steal from them very much but I do every now and then. Mostly its to get activation keys for when I wipe my hard drives to start fresh for software thats mine in the first place... little bastards...
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Offline TrickyNekro

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2009, 07:29:54 AM »
Hey....
If you like Microsoft and stay legal all the time it's your problem after all...
But I don't feel like being illegal... I just share and knowledge must be free for everyone...
I'm sorry but this is the way I grow up.... No private school, and now no private University...
And note that education here at Greece is a country issue.... in other words... it's public and free!


But, I posted just to say that reverse engineering is useful...
Not for coping things.... But for learning things....
The programming I know that far comes from reverse engineering codes and reading manuals...
I have a very small class time...
For whom the interrupts toll...


P.S. I've been inactive for almost a year... Don't give promises but I'll try to complete my tutorials. I'll let you know when..

Cheers!

Offline Admin

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2009, 07:46:06 AM »
Quote
And note that education here at Greece is a country issue.... in other words... it's public and free!
No such thing as free, someone always pays . . . it comes out of your taxes :P

Offline TrickyNekro

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2009, 07:52:15 AM »
EEegggrrr darn you.... I knew something wasn't right....  :P :P
It's been so many years....

But, seriously now...
It's free... Especially when you get to University and have all those books for free and such...
With other words... If I was to pay three to ten grand for a year... now I pay 100 to 300 dollars a year...
I consider this free.... Let ourselves be free of unneeded philosophy right now... 8)
For whom the interrupts toll...


P.S. I've been inactive for almost a year... Don't give promises but I'll try to complete my tutorials. I'll let you know when..

Cheers!

Offline Admin

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2009, 07:59:27 AM »
Just remember they *increased* taxes to pay for the rest of your education. That means when you're 50 years old, you'll still be paying for some schmucks education :P

And 'free' doesn't mean 'high quality' . . . you get what you pay for :P

My highschool economics teacher would always say 'there is no such thing as free lunch'.


<in full awareness that the subject of this topic is beyond salvation>

Offline TrickyNekro

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Re: Anyone interested in Reverse Engineering?
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2009, 08:12:13 AM »
Hehe.... Ok... nothings free if you want to say that...

And... It's of a good quality after all.... If the teachers see that you are interested...
They WILL help you by all means..... (ok... they aren't going to pay you...)
And ok... not only for your own good... but for theirs also...

Unfortunately the education budget is only 1.5 percent of the annual budget...
Lefties say that with a 5% our country is going to be very competitive in the coming years....
But they are so narrow minded people.... so narrow minded.... back to the years of USSR....
darn it....
We have so many people leaving our country for studies.... that's a bad thing...
I probably gonna be one.... but I first need to prove myself to get a scholarship...
I'll see...

Best regards,
Lefteris, greece
For whom the interrupts toll...


P.S. I've been inactive for almost a year... Don't give promises but I'll try to complete my tutorials. I'll let you know when..

Cheers!

 


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