Author Topic: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor  (Read 26906 times)

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Offline wheelyneilTopic starter

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2009, 07:49:12 PM »
Thanks Soren

Now I have to get some parts ;D it may take a couple days  supplier that I was dealing with stopped carrying lots of  stuff

and radio shack has very little. I guess I will have to   deal with the digi-key company. but I have to wait for shipping >:(

I get back with you soon!

Also I have noticed my Vertical trace line is showing very weak and I almost cant see the full wave form :( I guess thats what I paid for? Even when I focus and increase the intensity >:(

Take care Soeren

Regards
Neil
Take care
Neil

Offline Soeren

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2009, 07:55:51 AM »
Hi Neil,

Now I have to get some parts ;D it may take a couple days  supplier that I was dealing with stopped carrying lots of  stuff

and radio shack has very little. I guess I will have to   deal with the digi-key company. but I have to wait for shipping >:(
Oh. For the BC547, almost any small signal NPN will do and for the other components, near values will probably be close enough and will at least give a close approximation.


Also I have noticed my Vertical trace line is showing very weak and I almost cant see the full wave form :( I guess thats what I paid for? Even when I focus and increase the intensity >:(
When you're looking at a square edge, it should have a fast risetime and that will move the electron beam faster over the phosphor coated screen and as such gives very little glow. On a quality scope and with a "really square" square, you shouldn't see any vertical lines at all, just the horizontal segments :)
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline wheelyneilTopic starter

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #62 on: October 23, 2009, 08:21:34 AM »
Thanks Soeren

That is what happened when I built the signal generator The square signal on the rise and fall cant be seen at certain freq's

I can see it all right on the calibration signal but that is only 1hz cycle when I jumped up to 75hz I could not see the rise and fall of the wave.

All I can do is work with what I have, I am thankful I have a oscope at all ;D

Thanks again for helping me understand why things look as they do!

Have a great day!

Neil
Take care
Neil

Offline Soeren

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #63 on: October 23, 2009, 02:45:16 PM »
Hi Neil,

All I can do is work with what I have, I am thankful I have a oscope at all ;D

As I said, it sounds fine to me.
Here's a picture illustrating that the "problem" (read: normal behaviour) is only on the vertical transitions.
Where the trace is close to vertical, the trace seems to disappear, but as soon as there's even a small slant, it's quite visible (still burning brightly where the trace doesn't move vertically over a unit of time.

This is as it is, since in any given time, the electron beam outputs a certain amount of "light" and if you spread that out over a large area (by the vertical deflection circuit, in response to a change in input voltage), there is less light at any given spot - a bit like a rubber band getting thinner when you stretch it.

Another pic showing a square - with a bit of high frequency dampening, whether it's from the scope being bad or misaligned, or it's the square being measured that's bad, or perhaps it's measured with a loose piece of coax or worse.

Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline wheelyneilTopic starter

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #64 on: October 23, 2009, 06:28:08 PM »
Thanks for the Pictures Soren

The Bottom picture is what's happening no matter how I try I cannot get that rise and fall trace on a square wave above a few Hz.

But as I built the circuit just playing with that adjustable freq circuit, I got a saw tooth type form when I was putting different caps and R's and could see the entire wave form but if it is a fast and square on  and off no good for me! >:(

By chance is there a internal adjust for that  :o? I think I just better stay with the gov circuit for now...........Ya think? ;D

Ill keep working and if I have too at some point I'll Buy a better scope.  But I really think it's just that I am new to it all, we will see!

But for now Ill keep working and when I get a chance Ill send a couple pictures. And without your help and answers like these I would already be lost :o

Thanks

Neil

Picture is of 2v//div and 1mS/div =1hz It must be the operator!!!!! ;D ::) :P :'( ;)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 07:27:39 PM by wheelyneil »
Take care
Neil

Offline Soeren

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2009, 12:33:43 AM »
Hi Neil,


The Bottom picture is what's happening no matter how I try I cannot get that rise and fall trace on a square wave above a few Hz.

You're not really listening - the scope is fine and should be like that (the electron beam is moving so fast from low to high that the phosphor coating doesn't get any exitation, hence almost no vertical lines).
There's no real need to see vertical lines either, as you know where it starts and ends. You'll get used to reading the 'scope in a glance, without even thinking about it.


By chance is there a internal adjust for that  :o?

That would be your personal focus adjustment ;D


Ill keep working and if I have too at some point I'll Buy a better scope.  But I really think it's just that I am new to it all, we will see!

Keep the 'scope, any other will look the same.


Picture is of 2v//div and 1mS/div =1hz It must be the operator!!!!! ;D ::) :P :'( ;)

If it's set at 1ms/div the waveform is 1/0.001s = 1kHz  (which is quite normal for the probe calibrator signal).
Once again, it looks perfect to me.

Go to:
http://www.tek.com/Measurement/App_Notes/XYZs/

And download the pdf (the Tektronix XYZ of Oscilloscopes):
http://www.tek.com/cgi-bin/rfbypass.cgi?link=http://www2.tek.com/cmswpt/tidownload.lotr?ct=TI&cs=pri&ci=2280&lc=EN

It's a tutorial for using a 'scope and it's quite good.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline wheelyneilTopic starter

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2009, 03:41:17 PM »
Hi Soeren

Just finished the circuit and heading to testing soon.

It's a shame it's raining and I cant get to the engine............... :'(

well I will try and play with the freq circuit and see what happens :o

Here is a picture of it, you might be able to see if I screwed something up.................... ;D

Winter is moving in and weather is changing a lot. It only going to get to 25.5 Celsius I'll be frozen if it falls much more.............. :P

I bet your winters are pretty cold in DK?

Once in a great while it will make it to 0 Celsius down here but not to often.

Well take care and testing reports coming soon!

Best regards

Neil
Take care
Neil

Offline Soeren

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2009, 04:31:17 PM »
Hi Neil,


It's a shame it's raining and I cant get to the engine............... :'(

well I will try and play with the freq circuit and see what happens :o
That was the idea with the test generator - replicating the Hall signal so that you won't have to start the engine all the time.
How does the test generator work, is the output approximately as the Hall signal?


Here is a picture of it, you might be able to see if I screwed something up.................... ;D
White wires on a white board, and several of them I cannot really see whether they're in a hole or not - are you kidding ;D
You might wanna use an Ohm-meter to check if there's connection according to the schematic.

The pic does reveal a certain thing however, you are a bit rough on the contacts in your board, several of them are damaged.  Either you push down too thick wires or you hit them at an angle which gets the two contact points to sway to the same side and get deformed in the process.
If you feel brave, it cen be dismantled from the back and the contacts can then be bend back into shape - but only if you feel really brave, as you can destroy the entire board that way.

Did you get an output with the test genny as input?


Winter is moving in and weather is changing a lot. It only going to get to 25.5 Celsius I'll be frozen if it falls much more.............. :P

I bet your winters are pretty cold in DK?

Once in a great while it will make it to 0 Celsius down here but not to often.
Oh, poor you ;)
Right now it's 9°C outside, but we have had a few nights of 0°C allready and in the winter, -10°C is not uncommon, -20°C or lower is possible, but luckily not too common (add Wind Chill Factor and you'll understand why we use plenty of warm clothes in the winter - perhaps except my youngest son, whom we just visited today, he's still wearing shorts outside  :o)
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline wheelyneilTopic starter

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2009, 10:38:13 PM »
Hello Soren
Sorry for the delay, I was playing with th genny circuit, and I was getting all kinds of really strange wave on the scope. I started to be suspicious of may variable power supply and sure enough I went to a battery little 7.5 voltand there was a square wave and as I moved the var pot you could see the freq increase and decrease.

That made me much happier ;D

Here is something I  have to ask a question I bought a mixed bag of ceramic disc caps but not sure how they are rated some have 3 numbers and some only 2 . If I understand right the first 2 number are significant and the 3rd is a multiplier.........Right?

Anyways if you could tell Me how these are rated it would be a big help. uF-nF-pF


Here are a couple picture First one is of the Cap's and second one is the signal from the gen signal circuit.

Buy the way the scope was set at 5Vdc/div and .2mS/div. Also I could only get a 5.1 volt Zener and I know you were trying to get the wave to look as close to the Hall Effect signal. sorry but that was all that I could get. But it looked good to me ,

but I still am having a bit of a time grasping conversion from mS to hz. I know there are 1000 millisec in a second and 1Hz is a second.
 so why am I confused...........Idont know Duh :o

I don't know what the vari 100k was set at and not sure of cap value. I hate when I don't know if the parts are right :'(

I will be tryin it on the real engine tomorrow. :D ;D

Take care and I will have more input for you soon.
Thanks and have a great day!
Neil
Take care
Neil

Offline wheelyneilTopic starter

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #69 on: October 27, 2009, 04:58:11 PM »
Hi Soren
Well I went out and started testing today but didnt get far. The signals from the Hall signal was fine, but when I went to TP1 it gave me a square wave with a on threshold at 12Vdc but the off threshold was about 10Vdc it never went to 0Vdc it was like the signal was floating above ground. I have sent a drawing that I hope you see what I am saying.

Anyways I thought I had something wrong in the circuit and I checked and couldnt find it so I stopped and wanted to ask what you think it's doing.

Take care
Neil
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 04:59:33 PM by wheelyneil »
Take care
Neil

Offline Soeren

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #70 on: October 27, 2009, 07:06:48 PM »
Hi Neil,

Here is something I  have to ask a question I bought a mixed bag of ceramic disc caps but not sure how they are rated some have 3 numbers and some only 2 . If I understand right the first 2 number are significant and the 3rd is a multiplier.........Right?

Anyways if you could tell Me how these are rated it would be a big help. uF-nF-pF
The kind of ceramic caps shown in your pic are usually marked in pF (pico-Farad) and with 3 digits - the first two digits should be read literal and the third digit is the "multiplier" (number of zeroes).
I can only read the middle one in the pic marked "151", that should make it 150 pF (since the last digit "1" means add 1 zero after the first two digits "15".
If you had one marked "123", it would be 12000 pF = 12 nF.

You might run into some which are marked like "2.2 n" which is pretty easy, namely 2.2 nF.
When you buy a large grab bag of mixed caps, you may be so unlucky that some are marked with a seemingly strange in-house codes (It does make sense to the company that ordered and paid extra to get them marked that way of course).

Ceramic caps of the type in question are in the range a few pF to a few nF.

It's not hard to make a little tester, that will enable you to determine their value.


Buy the way the scope was set at 5Vdc/div and .2mS/div. Also I could only get a 5.1 volt Zener and I know you were trying to get the wave to look as close to the Hall Effect signal. sorry but that was all that I could get. But it looked good to me ,

but I still am having a bit of a time grasping conversion from mS to hz. I know there are 1000 millisec in a second and 1Hz is a second.
 so why am I confused...........Idont know Duh :o

I don't know what the vari 100k was set at and not sure of cap value. I hate when I don't know if the parts are right :'(
The period of the signal is: 8/7*200µs = 228.6µs = 4,375 Hz
How did I reach that number?
The timebase is 0.2ms (=200µs) per division and you have 8 full periods in 7 divisions.
7*200µs = 1400µs and that holds 8 full periods, so should be diveded with 8.

It seems that one of the time-keeping components are wrong by 50 times.

Time to frequency and v.v. is easy, just take the reciprocal value: 1/frequency = time and 1/time = frequency.

Using a 5.1V zener is OK.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline Soeren

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #71 on: October 27, 2009, 07:18:12 PM »
Hi Neil,

Anyways I thought I had something wrong in the circuit and I checked and couldnt find it so I stopped and wanted to ask what you think it's doing.
If you take the input (left side of R1, the 1M resistor) directly to B+ (12V)  -  NOT while the input is connected to the Hall or the tester! - what is the voltage at TP1 then?  (Just measure with your DMM).
If it is less than 1V, R1 probably needs to be reduced to eg. 220k to 470k (and that would indicate a transistor with less gain than a fully functional BC547 - what transistor did you use? Make sure it's connected up correctly).
If not, please post the actual value you get.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline wheelyneilTopic starter

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #72 on: October 28, 2009, 07:55:33 AM »
Hi Soren
I just wanted to tell you I will be out of town today and I dont have access to the circuits I will send the reading to you tomorrow, But I think I found what was wrong.

Take care Soren

Neil
Take care
Neil

Offline wheelyneilTopic starter

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #73 on: October 29, 2009, 02:22:19 PM »
Hello Soren
Well here is today's adventure at Neil's House...;D

First off I checked left of R1 and only B+ was connected and ground-----Reading was only 2-3 mv.
 
Then I changed R1 with a 220k and then reading was 0.70Vdc.

Here are all the readings starting at B+ to TP2 with only B+ power attached.

B+ = 12.40Vdc

Tp1= 5.15vdc

Left of R1 or signal input = 0.70vdc

TP2 = 4.46vdc

The Transistor I am using is a 2n3904---- http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/fairchild/2N3904.pdf

I also tried a couple other npn 's from the same packet with no change. And the emitter is hooked to ground in all cases

Also I am sending a picture of the part of the circuit I know is wired correct it has been checked alot.......  :o

All picture of voltage readings are the circuit with only B+ and Ground connected.


Soren I hope this helps you to see what I am seeing and getting here. I am trying to make sure everything is correct so you are not wasting your time or effort. I have tried several times to get good pictures of the scope signal but I think the RPM's change a little during the picture and the camera can't get the full signal. the wave on  the screen is hard to freeze in place . >:(

So this is all I have for now and I hope it helps.
Many Thanks
Neil
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 04:59:30 PM by wheelyneil »
Take care
Neil

Offline Soeren

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #74 on: October 29, 2009, 05:02:29 PM »
Hi Neil,


I wrote something wrong: "If it is less than 1V..." should have read "If it's less than 1V below B+ (i.e. more than ~11V ref. to GND)..."


First off I checked left of R1 and only B+ was connected-------Reading was only 2-3 mv.

Not to assume any silliness, just to make sure we are speaking of the same things: Was the negative side of the battery connected to GND?


B+ = 12.40Vdc
Left of R1 or signal input = 0.70vdc

I asked you to connect the input to B+, but with that result, the left part of R1 cannot be connected to B+ then!


The Transistor I am using is a 2n3904---- http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/fairchild/2N3904.pdf

OK, I have changed the transistor in the following.
I hope it'll work OK with its low current gain of around 50 times at the currents involved.


Also I am sending a picture of the part of the circuit I know is wired correct it has been checked alot.......  :o

You beat me to suggesting that we build it up from the left side and add to it only when this works as it should :)


Soren I hope this helps you to see what I am seeing and getting here. I am trying to make sure everything is correct so you are not wasting your time or effort. I have tried several times to get good pictures of the scope signal but I think the RPM's change a little during the picture and the camera can't get the full signal. the wave on  the screen is hard to freeze in place . >:(

I have a pretty good idea assuming you made the measurements as I asked you to, but until I'm sure of that...

Here's what you need to do. Connect the parts exactly as shown here: http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Speed_Governor_Left_Side.pdf
Make the measurements exactly as described in the pdf-file and tell me what they were - I have written what they should be, but tell me what they are, whether or not they correlate with what I've written.
When I have your answer, I should be able to tell you what needs correcting.

I have made an alternative "right side" of the circuit that will teach you a bit more, as it breaks each function up in blocks that are easier to understand as they each do only one thing. I won't post it until we have negotiated this first hurdle though, as that might just take focus from what needs to be solved first.

When we're there, I'll let you decide which you'd rather make - the one with a 555 will be a bit more compact, the alternative will teach you quite a bit and you will be able to troubleshoot it much easier than the 555 when you truly understand what blocks goes into the circuit where.

But first... let's find out whether the transistor is shot (I'm afraid the cap is based on the TP2 reading).
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline wheelyneilTopic starter

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #75 on: October 29, 2009, 07:03:04 PM »
Soren Here are the results.

B+= 12.04

Input = With 11.02v  Without 0v

TP1 = With .02 Without 11.08 the ".02 is not a misprint it was .02 your diagram said .2 to .3"

TP2 = With 10.06v Without 11.3v

Also the 220k R1 gets very hot when the wire input wire was hooked up with B+.

I think my meter is loading the circuit?

Also I disconnected this part of the circuit from the 4093 so this part is isolated. The only connections are B+ and ground and the circuit it reassembled to diagram exactly ;D

I really hope it helps

I know its late there have a good night ;)
Neil
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 07:15:37 PM by wheelyneil »
Take care
Neil

Offline wheelyneilTopic starter

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #76 on: October 30, 2009, 07:57:05 AM »
Hello Soren

Well I am going to ask you a question about the left side of this circuit. Please don't laugh if I am wrong I am just trying to learn ::)

Is this part of the circuit acting as a switch for a on off signal and then using decoupling capacitor to reduce the noise to the 4093?

 ;D
Neil
Take care
Neil

Offline Soeren

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #77 on: October 30, 2009, 11:56:08 PM »
Hi Neil,

B+= 12.04

Input = With 11.02v  Without 0v
The two ends of a wire should be at the same voltage (B+ and Input with a wire connected).
IS B+=12.04 when you measure 11.02V at the input?
(You could measure the V_drop of the wire by putting the black lead on the input and the red lead on B+).


TP1 = With .02 Without 11.08 the ".02 is not a misprint it was .02 your diagram said .2 to .3"
The 0.2V to 0.3V is from the datasheet of the transistor (the Vce_sat), so either the transistor is terminally ill, or something is connected wrong, perhaps shorted?


TP2 = With 10.06v Without 11.3v
Strange, without the wire connected, it should be close to B+ (within ~1%)


Also the 220k R1 gets very hot when the wire input wire was hooked up with B+.
Assuming the right side of this R1 was at ground potential, the max current/power is 55µA/660µW, so I think you have a much smaller resistor. 220k is red-red-yellow.


I think my meter is loading the circuit?
I started to think the same, but then I found the datasheet for the meter and the input impedance should be 9MOhm, so unless the meter is broken, loading should not be an issue.

for a quick test, measure your B+ directly and through a 1MOhm resistor.
The voltage should be B+ without the resistor and B+ x 9/10 with it.
For 12.04V, the "resisted" measurement should then be 10.8V.
If your meter is broken (in regards to input impedance), this value will be much lower.


Also I disconnected this part of the circuit from the 4093 so this part is isolated. The only connections are B+ and ground and the circuit it reassembled to diagram exactly ;D
Super, that's what I wanted you to do, but I guess I wasn't clear on that.


I really hope it helps
I don't like the different voltages on the same piece of wire?
Either Q1 or/and C1 appears to be dud.
Q1 should be closed and the emitter high impedance without the wire, so should appear to not be there, meaning that you should get the full B+ at TP1 without the wire.
With the wire it should appear as if the emitter is actually ground (the Vce_sat is small enough to not influence the measurements that much).

Please _measure_ the value of R1, if it gets hot, it isn't 220k.
For a 0.25w resistor to get "very hot", at least 0.2W (or something like that) should go through it. So my best guess is that you have used 220 Ohm rather than 220 kOhm?

If you remove C1 completely from the circuit and redo the measurements (yes, only a resistor to TP2), what measurements do you get then?
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline wheelyneilTopic starter

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #78 on: October 31, 2009, 03:39:23 PM »
Hello Soren
 I will be away till Monday Night as soon as I can I will reset the whole set up and start from scratch with new parts and see if we have better results.

I will report as soon as I get it done.

Sorry it is being a pain :'(

Have a good weekend, I don't know if you have Halloween in the DK But tonight is a Holiday for us. So Happy Halloween! :o


Neil
Take care
Neil

Offline Soeren

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #79 on: October 31, 2009, 11:42:15 PM »
Hi Neil,

Is this part of the circuit acting as a switch for a on off signal and then using decoupling capacitor to reduce the noise to the 4093?
Missed this post yesterday.
The transistor and surrounding components are doing several jobs here, which are:
  Reducing the load on the Hall, to make sure the circuit won't interfere with the Halls main function (controlling ignition timing)
  Acting as a level translator from 0..4V to 0..12V
  Differentiating the signal to just give a single short needle-like pulse for the monoflop following it.

Its way past bedtime here, just woke up in front of the PC with a sore back so I better catch the rest of my Zs in a horizontal position, but if I forget it, please remind me to make a detailed block diagram, as that will probably make it easier to understand the function of each part.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline Soeren

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #80 on: November 01, 2009, 12:06:42 AM »
Hi Neil,


Sorry it is being a pain :'(

It ain't, at least not for me and for you, it just means victory will be even sweeter ;D


Have a good weekend, I don't know if you have Halloween in the DK But tonight is a Holiday for us. So Happy Halloween! :o

Yes, we have had Halloween for a few years now, even though it's not that different from a traditional feast held in February called "Fastelavn", although the background for them are different, the commercial side of the event is the same... Rip the consumer ;D
Fastelavn is an old tradition http://members.tripod.com/LINK_Settlers/fastelavn.htm

We seem to import any commercial "holiday/event" form the U.S. this last decade, Halloween, Valentines Day and I have a sneaky feeling that Thanksgiving, which have been a slight murmur for the past few years will explode in a couple of years time - we seem to get anything that the shops can cash in on and well, the kids love Halloween of course and the girls of all ages love Valentines Day (My GF in particular  ::)).
Personally, I'm not too fond of turkey, so I still wonder when there will be something for us boys - you wouldn't happen to have a Whiskey Day? (Oh well, I can allways swap the Jack'O'Lantern for a Jack D of course ;D).

Cheers, and a late Happy Halloween.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline wheelyneilTopic starter

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #81 on: November 03, 2009, 06:19:33 PM »
Hi Soren

Thanks for the incouraging words! I am trying everything to make it work but it just seems to haunt me, oh yes Halloween is over ;D

Okay here is todays Governor up dates.

I checked all resistors ohms and replaced Q1 and C1. You were right about the R1 it was a 1/4 watt and very small it had a orange 3rd band very hard to see sometimes. :P So I got RED RED YELLOW it cooled things down a bit ;D

Now after checking and rewiring everything here is the reading With and Without the in wire to B+.

B+=12.23 Vdc

in= w/12.23--------wo/0volts


TP1 = W/.02 to .03-------------Wo/ =11.92
.

TP2=  W/11.13------Wo/11.13

I also tried a different npn and tested a mps2222a but TP1 only changed to .04Vdc.

Just so you know I measured the emitter base voltage it was .58 and the base to collector was .54 and Collector to emitter.02volts.\  with the in wire hooked to B+

So I am at a loss for words, I have no idea why these readings are coming out so different than what they should be. I even brought a 12 volt car battery into my desk to make sure that is was not my power supply acting up.

I sure hope you can see what is going wrong I don't have a clue.

I am sending a few pictures Not that they will help but at least you can see I am trying ;D

Take care
Neil
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 08:53:50 PM by wheelyneil »
Take care
Neil

Offline Soeren

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #82 on: November 04, 2009, 02:11:24 AM »
Hi Neil,

I checked all resistors ohms and replaced Q1 and C1. You were right about the R1 it was a 1/4 watt and very small it had a orange 3rd band very hard to see sometimes. :P So I got RED RED YELLOW it cooled things down a bit ;D
That doesn't really explain why it got hot, as a 22k will only dissipate (12^2 / 22000 =) 6.5mW
If it was a very small resistor, it might have been an 1/16W type, but that will handle almost 10 times as much (62.5mW).
As the heating problem is solved, I think we should just forget about what was wrong and move on though.


Now after checking and rewiring everything here is the reading With and Without the in wire to B+.
[...]
Just so you know I measured the emitter base voltage it was .58 and the base to collector was .54 and Collector to emitter.02volts.\  with the in wire hooked to B+

So I am at a loss for words, I have no idea why these readings are coming out so different than what they should be. I even brought a 12 volt car battery into my desk to make sure that is was not my power supply acting up.

I sure hope you can see what is going wrong I don't have a clue.
Except for the very low V_ce_sat of the transistor everything checks out as I estimated. (I don't know if you're aware of it, but using the tilde char "~" in front of a number means "about" or "close to" and about the TP2 voltage:
It should have been ~12.1V if you measured with your meter at one of the ranges which has got a 9MOhm input impedance, but the 11.13V is a 100% correct measure for a meter with a 1MOhm input impedance.
The datasheet I found on your meter says 9MOhm on the voltage ranges, but doing the numbers, I'm sure your meter is 1MOhm on the voltage range, so I consider the readings OK.

The low V_ce_sat is not a problem at all, now that you verified that the transistor is actually that low (it's loaded very lightly and it must be a good choice for low V_ce_sat on light loads), I was just surprised it was.

So... First part accomplished to an A+  now pad yourself on the shoulder :)

Now it's time to connect the test generator to the input (both signal and ground) and 'scope the input, TP1 and TP2 and compare to the curves shown in the file "Speed_Governor-input_module.pdf".

I'm expecting a post of "It Works" anytime soon now ;D
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline wheelyneilTopic starter

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #83 on: November 04, 2009, 08:10:49 AM »
Hi Soren
I hope a picture is worth a thousand words here are pictures of the" test signal circuit output" to the "input of the left part gov circuit".

Can you actualy understand what I said in the last sentence.............. ::) I cant and I wrote it....lol

All pictures are from the same freq setting output signal.

If you are unable to see settings they were in all pictures 5v/div and 50us/div.

If you could explain why the TP2 signal jumped up on the vertical divsions and changing where ground is?

Thanks Much!
Neil
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 04:44:01 PM by wheelyneil »
Take care
Neil

Offline Soeren

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #84 on: November 04, 2009, 10:00:50 PM »
Hi Neil,

I hope a picture is worth a thousand words here are pictures of the" test signal circuit output" to the "input of the left part gov circuit".

Can you actualy understand what I said in the last sentence.............. ::) I cant and I wrote it....lol
When coupled with my previous knowledge of the subject I can decipher it ;)


If you are unable to see settings they were in all pictures 5v/div and 50us/div.

If you could explain why the TP2 signal jumped up on the vertical divsions and changing where ground is?
Well, I thought you changed the test generator, but I guess I didn't ask you to... Until now that is.
Please try changing C1 in the tester from 22nF to say 2.2µF to 4.7µF to get the frequency down to a realistic frequency (should be around the 80Hz mark with VR1 somewhere in the middle third of its travel).

When you're down to 80Hz, try measuring TP2 once more.

The reason for the lifted ground is that C1 works like a pump. When the transistor is open, C1  is charged a bit via R4 (positive side) and the transistor (negative side). R4 and C1 will work as a voltage divider to AC.

When the transistor is closed, The left side of C1 (ground side before) is connected to B+ through R3, the right side is still connected through R4 and C1 has still got some voltage difference on it.

Try correcting the test frequency signal first, then let's see.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline wheelyneilTopic starter

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #85 on: November 05, 2009, 04:57:16 PM »
Hi Soren

I am sorry I didn't correct that circuit :(. I  :(slowed it down a bit today ;D

I had fun switch caps in and out and series and para to see the changes. I also tried to get the freq as close to 60Hz as I could, hope that was okay?

Let me ask if this is correct!  3.2/divisions*5mS/div= 0.016 then recip 1/0.016=62.5Hz.

Hope that is right? If not clear me up will you ;D

Here are the pictures and all of them were taken with scope set to 5v/div and 5mS/div.

Hope this works better than yesterday.

Take care

Neil
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 05:13:17 PM by wheelyneil »
Take care
Neil

Offline Soeren

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #86 on: November 05, 2009, 06:56:55 PM »
Hi Neil,

Let me ask if this is correct!  3.2/divisions*5mS/div= 0.016 then recip 1/0.016=62.5Hz.

Hope that is right? If not clear me up will you ;D
Yes, that's correct.


Here are the pictures and all of them were taken with scope set to 5v/div and 5mS/div.

Hope this works better than yesterday.
It does... Enough to see that I have been a bit sleepy when I made it  :(

In the TP2 pic, I assume the vertical midpoint (line rather) is close to 12V (I don't know where your ground line is) and the positive peak is some 10V above (i.e. around 20..22V)??

This peak needs to be removed by a diode (any will do) in parallel with R4 (100k), with the cathode (the bar) pointing up to B+ and the anode towards TP2.
That will quench the part of the peak going higher than 0.65V above B+

Please post a pic of TP2 with the diode mounted.

If you allways keep the ground line (on the 'scope) at the middle line, the one with subdivisions, it's easy to compare pictures.


Well, off to sleep now - have to go to a celebration on the Australian Embassy tomorrow, followed by dinner at a Michelin star restaurant (Hard work, but someone has to do it) ;D
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline wheelyneilTopic starter

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #87 on: November 05, 2009, 08:10:00 PM »
Goodday Mr Soren


Quote
This peak needs to be removed by a diode (any will do) in parallel with R4 (100k), with the cathode (the bar) pointing up to B+ and the anode towards TP2.
That will quench the part of the peak going higher than 0.65V above B+

It is Done and it clipped almost all of the peak.



Quote
If you allways keep the ground line (on the 'scope) at the middle line, the one with subdivisions, it's easy to compare pictures.

Soren 0v ground is at middle grid line. "From now on" ;)


Quote
Well, off to sleep now - have to go to a celebration on the Australian Embassy tomorrow, followed by dinner at a Michelin star restaurant (Hard work, but someone has to do it) ;D

I'm Having sympathy pains for you as I type. ::)

No political asylum needed :o

There is not very many people trying to escape DK ;D

Hey sounds like your going to have a very nice time, enjoy sir enjoy!!! ;D

Jealous :'(
Neil

I was just experimenting after adding the diode you told me to add and added another diode in series with the cap and 100k r4 cath is facing C1  and it cleaned the top portion of the signal. I don't know if that is good or bad ? If bad I'll just take it out. :-\

Picture 1 signal with diode added that you requested.

Picture 2 signal with both diodes added  :-\
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 11:56:15 AM by wheelyneil »
Take care
Neil

Offline wheelyneilTopic starter

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #88 on: November 07, 2009, 07:28:25 AM »
Hey Soren

Well did you have a good time on your little adventure to the Embassy/
Hope so it sounds like it would have been a Great time.

Just wanted to show you a picture of the woodgas refinery that your circuit will control the out going gas from the reactor.
It runs on wood chips from tree trimmers and small chunk wood. And burns cleaner than most autos, very low CO emissions.
Clean Energy is what they call it............ ::) Actually during WWII these were developed in Europe to run vehicles and farming equipment on coal as petrol supplies were being cut off by Germany. Old tech being brought back because of petrol prices.

Anyways here is a picture of a test run to get temperature levels across the system, if you look close you can see the flame it is a hydrogen methane mixture. and will run any internal gas combustion engine. The flame is about .5 meters long if you look next to the ladder you can see a faint tips of the flare.

Well just wanted you to see part of the end project, and with your help the governor will control throttle for this gas mixture.

Take care

Neil
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 07:43:56 AM by wheelyneil »
Take care
Neil

Offline Soeren

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Re: Question! and Help I need to build a v8 engine servo motor governor
« Reply #89 on: November 07, 2009, 12:34:24 PM »
Hi Neil,

It is Done and it clipped almost all of the peak.

Super - just what it should be like ;D


Soren 0v ground is at middle grid line. "From now on" ;)

Great :)


I'm Having sympathy pains for you as I type. ::)

Thanks, that helps  :P


There is not very many people trying to escape DK ;D

Last one was found in Spain living as a beggar only a few days ago (reason he ran probably has to do with the woman he butchered though). Usually it's the large corporations that runs - to avoid the taxes - except for the really large corps. that just tells the tax office that they'll go if they have to pay tax and if they employ enough people, they get away with it  >:(


Hey sounds like your going to have a very nice time, enjoy sir enjoy!!! ;D

Jealous :'(

You shouldn't be, the pink bubbly was at least 3°C too cold ;D


I was just experimenting after adding the diode you told me to add and added another diode in series with the cap and 100k r4 cath is facing C1  and it cleaned the top portion of the signal. I don't know if that is good or bad ? If bad I'll just take it out. :-\

It's great that you experiment, as it is the fastest way to learn and you certainly got a nice waveform out of it. However... We don't want nice, we want functional and the extra diode makes it not go low enough for triggering the 4093.
The 4093 has got Schmitt trigger inputs, so no need for cleaning up the waveform any further than the first diode.
A revised schematic is found here: http://That.Homepage.dk/PDF/Speed_Governor_Left_Side_v1,1.pdf
I'm not really sure where you placed the extra diode?

Sounds like you're ready for the next installment?
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

 


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