Society of Robots - Robot Forum

General Misc => Misc => Topic started by: benji on May 04, 2008, 04:15:45 AM

Title: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 04, 2008, 04:15:45 AM
hey folks, i just had an idea lately
like if admin can arrange some topic that everyone does a research for.
or maybe a pretty advanced robot that all of us build together
,,,what about making a team of us so we can do some big research
or 2 teams ,,maybe more, each team research a part of the robot then we assemble everything together
like
team1 study mechanichs
team2 does robot vision
team3 inteligence algorithms
team4 implementing/programing
.
.
.
etc

wouldnt this be cool?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 04, 2008, 06:04:19 AM
Iam in love to be in ur team
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Admin on May 04, 2008, 07:22:03 AM
A project like this would need a dedicated leader . . .

If you really want, you should just start one and try and 'drag' people along with you. I'll encourage and help, but I'm tied up with other projects at the moment so wouldn't be able to lead something like this.

A suggestion, the $50 Robot hasn't been upgraded in awhile, you can always take it to the next step. Perhaps add vision to it? Encoders? Sonar? If everyone works to improve it, it would be be a team effort. A true open-source robot . . .
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 04, 2008, 07:25:36 AM
we will be glad to do that , adding functionalities like wall follower and all
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: cooldog on May 04, 2008, 07:50:37 AM
didn't we already talk about this ???

http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotforum/index.php?topic=2765.0
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 04, 2008, 09:11:37 AM
Quote
didn't we already talk about this

http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotforum/index.php?topic=2765.0

i wasnt here by that time, but why didnt u guys do it?

Quote
A project like this would need a dedicated leader . . .
sure and thats why i suggest you Admin for that, the are the most qualified here
its not a good idea that the leader be someone else because after the distributed work is done the leader should collect
all this work and put it together in the 50$robot
,maybe you can be the leader without working hard on it, there are others who are willing maybe
but you should assemble the stuff together at the end

if you guys willin to do so i can implement A* to that robot if it has a sharp IR scanner

and if anyone willing to join let post somthing here with suggestions about how to improve the 50$bot
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 04, 2008, 10:14:19 AM
iam completely into this , but how can we do it we are like oceans apart working together would be a little difficult without any cooperation ..
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 04, 2008, 10:40:26 AM
sure and thats why i suggest you Admin for that, the are the most qualified here


i think we are putting too much pressure on admin

really anyone can be the leader , as long as they have good organizational skills and are dedicated

any volunteers?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 04, 2008, 11:35:40 AM
the problem is not leadership the problem is coordination how are we going to do that coz we are miles apart
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: cooldog on May 04, 2008, 02:34:18 PM
i remember that in the lats project we were sujesting skype but we all live in different time zones

sure and thats why i suggest you Admin for that, the are the most qualified here
i think we are putting too much pressure on admin

i agree we should work togeather and let admin do his thing we are are perficly capable to do this without admin (NO OFFENCE) in the last topic we tryed this in admin didn't say anything untill the 4th page and we were doing fine
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 04, 2008, 03:35:38 PM
well i agree with you folks

the leader should but the microcontroller
the leader should assembly the robot mechanic parts
the leader then should video it and post videos and pics

who is willing to be the leader?

Quote
the problem is not leadership the problem is coordination how are we going to do that coz we are miles apart
it doesnt matter
we can send admin the codes
we can send admin the pcb pictures
i mean the hard work can be sent via emails and the leader just downloads the hex files into his microcontroller and let the bot run

the problem we might face here is when we need to buy stuff like a sharp ir or servos,,
who's gonna pay n how?

maybe we need a leader who is willing to do so,,,

as long as the leader is gonna provide money and assembly work he doesnt have to do anything else
exept directing work

if anyone is willing to be a leader for this then im his first man,,,
and im sure there will be lots of others hwo are willing to participate

any other points?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 04, 2008, 03:37:53 PM
or maybe if we are developing the same 50$ robot we just do coding and pcb design
then we send admin the stuff so he can try it

this way we should make strong algorithms cuz we only have an ir scanner and 2 motors
it would be fun
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Kohanbash on May 04, 2008, 09:33:18 PM
Hi
I think one of the problems with the original summer project was scope. Their were a lot of ideas but the coordination would have been a bit difficult.
I think this is a good idea, if we standardize on the $50 robot than who ever is interested in developing something can do it on their own (with support from the SOR community) and than share it with the community. This way everyone can work on what they are interested in while benefiting the group and not labeling any one as the "leader" or requiring the coordination.

Also once you write your tutorial it can probably be linked to the main $50 robot site.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Private Reid on May 05, 2008, 02:50:18 AM
OH, YEA!

This could be a SoR             MEMORAL MOMENT

IT WOULD GO DOWN I HISTORY!!!!!

...or mabye not...

       But sure I'll join...if im allowed?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Private Reid on May 05, 2008, 02:59:52 AM
didn't we already talk about this ???

http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotforum/index.php?topic=2765.0

That was a lovely topic...


Ending with Airman00 Saying   "Are we going to actually be building this, or not?"


and well...they never did...


So lets try to beat them !!!

I also loved the idea of calling it    "SoRobot"          Such Originality...
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: dunk on May 05, 2008, 03:32:33 AM
Quote
didn't we already talk about this Huh

http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotforum/index.php?topic=2765.0
the problem with this topic was although many people had opinions on the specifications of the modules
nobody actually went ahead and designed any finished modules.
maybe this was because the final specs were too complicated for most of the people to work with.

personally i think the discussion was still worth having as a lot of design considerations were discussed which are useful in other projects.

if you guys decide to continue with your idea i would recommend keeping things simple.
each contributor would have to be able to design and use the part they are contributing (otherwise people just won't bother).
the $50 platform would bee a good starting point for this as a lot of people already have the platform.

dunk.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Private Reid on May 05, 2008, 03:44:02 AM
Quote
didn't we already talk about this Huh

http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotforum/index.php?topic=2765.0
the problem with this topic was although many people had opinions on the specifications of the modules
nobody actually went ahead and designed any finished modules.
maybe this was because the final specs were too complicated for most of the people to work with.

personally i think the discussion was still worth having as a lot of design considerations were discussed which are useful in other projects.

if you guys decide to continue with your idea i would recommend keeping things simple.
each contributor would have to be able to design and use the part they are contributing (otherwise people just won't bother).
the $50 platform would bee a good starting point for this as a lot of people already have the platform.

dunk.

agreed

KISS

Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 05, 2008, 09:20:25 AM
i still see the need of a leader

why?

1/give people orders (what each man has to do (study))

2/if there is no leader then there may be people not caring about working so the study would fail
so the leader can threat the person that they can be knocked out of the team if they dont work and
replaced by another.

any one can announce his/her self to be a leader if he/she wants to .(he/she has to has developing ideas)

then we can see how many people can join his/her team
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 05, 2008, 11:30:46 AM
well the leader should be experienced and efficient , who can be among us??
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Asellith on May 05, 2008, 11:50:13 AM
First off lets stop reinventing the wheel here. Most of the guys pushing this project now are new to the forum and where to my knowledge not as active when that was going on. Read the previous thread and look at the docs.

http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotforum/index.php?topic=2765.0
 (http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotforum/index.php?topic=2765.0)
yes its like 6 pages or something but worth the read.

If you want to upgrade the $50 robot then just do it and write a tutorial for it. Adding vision or other functions would be nice and give people stepping stones to follow as they learn based on the same frame work. However the $50 robot is limited without a major overhaul. (Such as adding a Axion controller) The other open source SOR project was great because it did not require any leadership at all. I was excited about it but have stopped all robot research/construction for the time being because of a job change and moving. Next week things will calm down for me and I will be back into the swing and want to do some projects and was planning on taking one of the mini projects for the open source project and developing it because I need to use it for a project so why not conform to the open source specifications and present that.

The great thing about open source is it doesn't need a leader. Several of us where compiling data from the thread into those documents listed and that was all. No one lead that project. The only possible problem is two people working on the same module but is that really that bad?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 05, 2008, 12:16:47 PM
Quote
If you want to upgrade the $50 robot then just do it and write a tutorial for it.
this means all work on one,, i meant to distribute this work on a team and someone to manage it
specially if the thing is big like vision so when there are more than one helpin one another guess things would be
more possible to happen
cuz i dont think someone's has time to make vision for the 50$ by himself

i dunno, thats just my point of view
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: paulstreats on May 05, 2008, 12:32:23 PM
I think the whole thing should be approached from a slightly different angle.

I noticed in the programming section that somebody wanted a "programming cookbook" full of robot specific algorythms.

Maybe we could all create jointly a robotics cookbook. ie. rather than design an entire robot or related ciruict board, we should provide a basic circuit such as  circuit to play basic sound, an ir circuit etc. There could also be a programming and an mechanics section.

I know its pretty much like the user tutorials on this site, but most people seem to only be happy to contribute full robots (apart from a few). Maybe we should build a robot cookbook (archive) full of small, easy to use circuits, algorythms and construction tips (like how to mount gears)
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Asellith on May 05, 2008, 01:15:38 PM
http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotforum/index.php?topic=2765.0 (http://www.societyofrobots.com/robotforum/index.php?topic=2765.0)


Ok please read the above thread. this discussion is starting to look a lot like the last one.

Yes vision is a big project. If you want to assemble a team to tackle that project then go ahead. If you set a specific goal and then ask for help you will most likely get someone interested.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 05, 2008, 01:51:25 PM
what do u mean by a specific goal we can contribute collectively and if some body is new that doesnt mean that he is a noob ... he may have better ideas than all of us
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 05, 2008, 03:30:40 PM
I agree with Asellith...
If we want to contribute to the community then add so f#cking tutorials...
We only talk about it that much but it ends up being just air in open tank...

You see many thing maybe easy for you but there are noob people in this robot "world"...
If you feel like wanting to contribute then, as said before, try first of all to upgrade the 50$ robot...
Make a better case... build better wheels and all that stuff...
Mostly start with A people... I hear many enthusiasts  here talk about robot vision...
Do you know what the hell a robot vision want... DO NOT EXPECT that everyone, one nice Sunday morning will wake up
and say... Wife, Kids.... it's time to buy that maggot 50 bucks robot a camera.... Sorry I forgot to mention you grandpa...

Hell man... most of the guys here are Americans... I don't have a  problem with this, but that's your philosophy of living... BUYING...
It's time to build something... something good...
To those who are speaking for the robot vision for example... What are your suggestions... which CMOS chip to use...
how many pixels, why, how to interface it to a medium (an other microcontroller in between the camera and the main processor)
How much processing power we need... Have we looked to what other done before as... Take an example... AVRcam...
I've been a year in this forum and I don't even remember of hearing that...
AVRcam is an open software module... with both schematics available...
And what are these webbies about... only for putting photos in facebook... wake the [email protected] up people....
This year I'm giving my board exams... And had to study hours and hours... but I have two robots in my roster even the one being unfinished...
What I'm telling is that if there is detication, there is time for everything... period people...

And why you need a leader... Is it why you are used so much of being sheep... you don't need a leader as far as you have will...
By will is what society lacks anyway... you probably need a manager for resources and such...
Without said leader and leadership is a bad thing ( it's a good thing in fact) but do not depend your whole lives on this... cause
good or bad, noone will spare you for free... ( and yes humanity is at a big stall these years... don't wonder why??? )

So... In the end... it does even matter... noway... it matters...
Because if you aid in SoR you will unintentionally aid in your everyday life...
Free information and help is my moto...
And I know that many do not compromise with this...


And to build a SoR robot is a nice idea... But a little bit difficult if people live in different places...
Superchiku said that before many times... But almost noone noticed...
And I wouldn't take an airplane to travel for Greece to anywhere in america for a single robot... without knowing anything about the country...

Well, that's it from me... It's your choice not mine after all...
And everything I said was a friendly advice... sorry for the tone of my voice...

Lefteris, Greece
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 05, 2008, 04:08:22 PM
well, i said before ,

1/ if you guys want to make a robot then someone would be willing to do the assembly

2/if you guys want to study some vision algorithms there is no need to assemble anything
and we can help each other with algorithms and coding ,,

3/the robotcook book is a great perfect idea, thanks paul,, this is what we need
,someone to suggest somthing that we can work together

Quote
If you feel like wanting to contribute then, as said before, try first of all to upgrade the 50$ robot...
Make a better case... build better wheels and all that stuff...

case ? wheels? i dunno what r ya thinkin but i was thinking to upgrade its algorithms ,the code....

Quote
Hell man... most of the guys here are Americans... I don't have a  problem with this, but that's your philosophy of living... BUYING...
It's time to build something... something good...
buying ??? i dont see anyone mentioned to buy anything unless you want to build the robot,,yea i guess you wont get a sharp ir and 2 servos for free

Quote
To those who are speaking for the robot vision for example... What are your suggestions... which CMOS chip to use...
how many pixels, why, how to interface it to a medium (an other microcontroller in between the camera and the main processor)
How much processing power we need...
yea thats the stuff we wanna discuss if we wanna make vision

Quote
AVRcam is an open software module...
i call this lazy work,,just hook the cmos camera into a microcontroller and do the processing all by yourself,,build your own algorithms
,,we wanna learn here not use already made stuff and just BUY it

Quote
And why you need a leader.
maybe you did understand a leader in a different way,,
its just someone who has to do the stuff i did mention before,,
this is a website and the people i may work with may quit for reasons i dunno why, we need someone to take of this stuff and find another
to replace,,i dont really wanna say that again....
if you wanna work with a team in SoR with no leader i guess youll be left working alone
and find what u have done doesnt plug to anything, as long as the work is distributed

Quote
Because if you aid in SoR you will unintentionally aid in your everyday life...
Free information and help is my moto...
thats why this post is posted  ;D

Quote
And to build a SoR robot is a nice idea... But a little bit difficult if people live in different places...
Superchiku said that before many times... But almost noone noticed...
And I wouldn't take an airplane to travel for Greece to anywhere in america for a single robot... without knowing anything about the country...
this is funny, no one is asked to travel nowhere for this project,,,i did notice it and i did answer superchiku on that

I SAID IT A HUNDRED TIMES AND CHECK MY FIRST POST

THE THING SUGGESTED IS TO STUDY AN ALGORITHM if we cant make a bot together(which is very hard to do)
and vision my man is all about algorithm
coding
the cookbook paul did suggest is the perfect choice for us,,i think
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 05, 2008, 04:24:20 PM
Quote
A project like this would need a dedicated leader . . .

to add to what i said,, this is what Admin said in his first post here
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 05, 2008, 04:52:16 PM
Man, I did read some posts and was not talking personally...

I mentioned AVR cam as an example... You have to see something see how it works and then probably build it on your own...
I didn't mentioned copying it... Anyway, this is what I meant will all that post...
And I do not mean to get it personal but I've at least tried to make some worth looking tutorials... And tried at least
help people learn something... If not... well I hope the try is worth...

I didn't say that someone is obliged to go to a place to build the robot... I did say, some want but it's fairly impossible for them...

When I said buy... man do not deny it... I have never bought a module in my life except from a ultra sonic ranger because I knew little about electronics back then...

I mentioned leader because you wait for a leader... It seems you haven't read my explanation...

Man... please do not rephrase me... It kinda annoying!!! Every annoying I would say...
So If you don't understand something I say... comment... Don't rephrase me.... please...

And I wasn't talking personally until you made me to...

Again... friendly speaking above all...
Lefteris...
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 06, 2008, 01:10:36 AM
vision u say is what we need but all of us dont know abt vision especially the programming part so if we are going to do something collectively then choose something which all can contribute in not some..
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 06, 2008, 03:35:45 AM
trickynero the talk was very much friendly till u did post and talked about stuff i dont think its appropriate to talk about,your language too(check how many F#CK u did) ,,plus, here is not the place to talk about american philosophy of life
we are trying to do somthing for the website in here and if you wanna be cooperative just suggest somthing
yea i could have suggested somthing wrong but thats not a sin i guess
maybe vision is wrong ,,so COME ON lets hear another subject we can do
dont u guys just judge what i suggested,if you think its wrong do suggest another thing

superchiku,,howcome you know that no one here knows about vision coding?

i have some algorithms myself i wanted to share,,the problem is that im using Matlab programming for that
so its a little tough to turn it to C

Quote
Again... friendly speaking above all...
sure,,

peace ;)
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 06, 2008, 07:27:43 AM
trickynero the talk was very much friendly till u did post and talked about stuff i dont think its appropriate to talk about,your language too(check how many F#CK u did) ,,plus, here is not the place to talk about american philosophy of life
we are trying to do somthing for the website in here and if you wanna be cooperative just suggest somthing
yea i could have suggested somthing wrong but thats not a sin i guess
maybe vision is wrong ,,so COME ON lets hear another subject we can do
dont u guys just judge what i suggested,if you think its wrong do suggest another thing

superchiku,,howcome you know that no one here knows about vision coding?

i have some algorithms myself i wanted to share,,the problem is that im using Matlab programming for that
so its a little tough to turn it to C

Quote
Again... friendly speaking above all...
sure,,

peace ;)


Man... I was trying to motivate and some off their chairs...
And I do not mind american life style...

Still... I might have been rude... so I'm sorry...

Peace...
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 06, 2008, 07:42:16 AM
So as soon as peace is restored... and hope everyone is happy...

I have an idea which is nice, easy, and can be materialized with what you already have in your robot....
Still I think vision is far fetched for beginners...

So... Why don't we implant color detection... but not alone...
We can combine it with a gripper...
A photoresistor and three LEDs (Green - Red - Blue) are enough...
Then coding is very easy and can be done experimentally...

With the gripper we can order the robot to catch the color object we want...
Still easy for a beginner and plenty of work to do...
And it only needs some plastic parts, a servo, and some passive electronics and LEDs....

So... what about this...

Lefteris
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 06, 2008, 08:49:46 AM
quite a nice one, but id still go with paul ,,a cookbook may include chapters
each person writes a chapter
how about  algorithms cookbook

everyone prepares a tutor about an algorithm and we collect then all of these into the book

im ready to prepare some navigation/pathplanning algorithms like A* ,djiksta ,dynamic A* ....etc

the thing with such a project is easy to distribute its work and easy to collect it into the book

a robot would be a little harder,,
so why dont we start to make a book then if we found our work is flexible together we may go for a robot

we may call it *SoR ALGORITHMS BOOK*

let me see other suggestions,,then we make a voting
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 06, 2008, 07:45:45 PM
there already is books like the one you mentioned benji


But I like the idea of making an SoR robotics book. I would readily right an article for it.

Anyone elese agree?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 06, 2008, 07:49:07 PM
Also we need a committee of people in charge of this book collaboration

I think around 3-5 people would do the trick

I would gladly be a part of this committee , but it would have to wait for another week or two as I am extremely busy at that time.

Any one up to this task?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Kohanbash on May 06, 2008, 08:07:56 PM
Hi
If we decide on the RoboBook I can help review Algorithms/Write ups. I can also create a section on Kalman Filtering (largely based from my previous posts).
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: ed1380 on May 06, 2008, 08:14:15 PM
*poke* *poke* or how about you work on the SOR project. you know the modular boards.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 06, 2008, 08:18:18 PM
*poke* *poke* or how about you work on the SOR project. you know the modular boards.

or both

the Society of Robots book sounds very promising
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 07, 2008, 02:00:51 AM
lookslike the book is getting accepted by many
let say

1/benji    (article)
2/airman  (article)
3/sdk32285 (article + review)

thats great aint it?
we still need more people and Admin's opinion
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 07, 2008, 02:05:32 AM
Well the book would be a very nice idea as soon as we explain the algorithms inside...

We can add behaviors to the 50$ robot and so....


Also modular boards is a very good point... They can be extremely help full..
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: paulstreats on May 07, 2008, 02:33:37 AM
You would need to organise it correctly so each algorythm entry would go something like this:

tiitle : my algorythm
Description: describe what the algorythm does and more importantly why and how
Psuedo code: provide some psuedo style code or block diagram
working example: show an actual piece of code that represents the algorythm

Something like this needs a structure to be decided on and used for all articles so there is a uniform look and it makes it easier for everyone to use
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 07, 2008, 04:51:33 AM
Now what kind of content do we want to put in this book?
All algorithms , or sort of like an improved and more advanced "Robot Builder's Bonanza"
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 07, 2008, 07:56:47 AM
i think it would be better to do Algorithms book
its just like paul said exept that i dont see the need for putting the code as
each person can implement it in a different way.
I guess a well explained algorithm would be enough then people code it their own way in different programing languages.

so who wants to join writing this book?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 07, 2008, 08:18:22 AM
I'm in... but I won't do anything until 31 May... Have to finish my exams first...
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 07, 2008, 09:45:52 AM
i think it would be better to do Algorithms book

yea I guess
but also we need to throw in simple algorithms , like an algorithm for a scanning sonar , etc.

I;m in aswell

who will be the coordinators?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 07, 2008, 09:52:33 AM
i think it would be better to do Algorithms book

yea I guess
but also we need to throw in simple algorithms , like an algorithm for a scanning sonar , etc.

I;m in aswell

who will be the coordinators?


I think we should just suggest the subjects and then choose...

So what are the subjects???
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 07, 2008, 11:02:17 AM
im gonna write about  A* pathfinding algorithm
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 07, 2008, 11:05:59 AM
Scanning rangefinder
Line Following
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 07, 2008, 11:09:39 AM
due to exams none of us would have enough time to do this right now, so i say everyone gets done on 1 August
so on that date we assemble the book and send it to Admin to put it in the website
but ,,whats the file extention to use? is wordpad good enough?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 07, 2008, 11:10:53 AM
i was thinking of actually printing the book

everyone send their articles to a coordinator and the coordinator will arrange to print the book
whoever wants it would pay a fee, naturally
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Kohanbash on May 07, 2008, 11:57:06 AM
If somebody wants to do some GPS related algorithms it would be usefull (waypoint following, etc..)
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 07, 2008, 12:18:53 PM
I'm in for a gripper and a color sensor... both modules schematics and algorithms...
I'll upload it as a tutorial... at the members tutorial as I live very far to make it a book and just sent it... ;)


Cheers...
Lefteris
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 07, 2008, 02:43:31 PM
book is it , then i also have many algo's which i would like to share both robot related and not related .. it would be nice seeing my algo being used world wide , so lets get started on that
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 07, 2008, 03:01:37 PM
OK

what I need right now is people telling me exactly what subjects they are doing - I mean exactly

I will do the following as of now, and maybe more
1. Line Following
2. Color Sensing

Just tell me what you guys are willing to do for sure . Ill make a members page for this project.

I'll arrange the organization of topics and even the printing of the book.


,Eric
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 07, 2008, 03:12:01 PM
How many of you guys would buy such a book?

and also check out this page:
 http://www.societyofrobots.com/member_tutorials/node/115
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 07, 2008, 03:26:37 PM
great work airman,, thats what we needed, someone to fire it up..
it just feel great that my ideas is turnin into reality
,,come on guys lets get a big book done, i would encourage anyone to contribute
this is our chance to do somthing great

i suggest that airman checks the algorithm and give notes about it to the author to modify it if it needs to.

i will do my work using wordpad as long as you can attach pics to it.

what about the fee? i thought it would be a free book,,but that seems a good idea if we can sell it and
make money out of it as it can be full of algorithms that might be super-helpfull for a beginner

so ,,would this be an online selling book? a pdf version? i guess this is better than printing it as long as there is no one ready to handle printing publishing
...etc

who is gonna be paid for it?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Kohanbash on May 07, 2008, 04:10:27 PM
Do we have a target date that articles need to be submitted by?

airman00- You can put me down for Kalman Filtering (I might also try to do a computer vision one but I'll commit to one at a time).
                     If the price is reasonable I would buy one.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 07, 2008, 04:19:51 PM
Quote
Do we have a target date that articles need to be submitted by?
i suggest the first of august

airman ,just to ensure , A* pathfinding .

again,, most of the folks comin to SoR , including writers would be out of the USA
i suggest selling it as a PDF online and if you want to you can print it and sell a paper book also.

i thought authors would get a copy for free  ;D
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 08, 2008, 12:51:14 AM
august will be too soon man we are  having our exams here , and we'll make the book free just think abt all the beginners out there who want to learn things but cant buy them on the net so plzz make them free and make some kinda division lke each team or group handling certain algorithms and codes like benjii u know a lot abt image processing try giving out image processing algo's in the book, also lets include algorithms like djikstra , pathfinding , obstacle avoidance with the sample codes for both PIC and AVR microcontrollers...

If anyone is intrested i would certainly like to share some other algorithms like prefix to postfix conversion and evaluation and all how that will help ill explain if u ppl are interested..
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 08, 2008, 02:42:54 AM
OK

what I need right now is people telling me exactly what subjects they are doing - I mean exactly

I will do the following as of now, and maybe more
1. Line Following
2. Color Sensing

Just tell me what you guys are willing to do for sure . Ill make a members page for this project.

I'll arrange the organization of topics and even the printing of the book.


,Eric

It's ok for me just the way you arranged it in the members pages these are my subjects

Thanks
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: bietz on May 08, 2008, 05:08:34 AM
Hey guys,

I've noticed that there seems to be a lot of interest in software and algorithms with this project, so I was thinking that Microsoft Robotics Studio (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/robotics/default.aspx) (MSRS) wouldn't be a bad idea as a possible platform.
I know it's M$ and all that, but it would allow us to do any kind of advanced algorithms with the processing power of a computer, without caring about the low power of an MCU. And the best part of it would be that anyone could run his own programs in simulation, and then give the same exact code to the one who has the real robot, so that (without any changes) it could work with the real robot.
We could do our own vision algorithms and AI algorithms and test them out in simulation, before doing it on the real robot, and since everything works on the internet with MSRS, when the code executes on the robot, everybody could see its webcam images, and a whole UI on the web (even control it).

It's just an idea, and maybe it's not that close to what SoR usually does, but who knows...
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Asellith on May 08, 2008, 06:17:22 AM
If code examples are given with the algorithms then they should be in c for both the AVR and the Pic that will cover most the the projects people do here. Those are the primary controllers used. Others exist but the people who use those can easily convert from C. So to benefit the most people I think C examples should be used.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 08, 2008, 06:35:29 AM
If code examples are given with the algorithms then they should be in c for both the AVR and the Pic that will cover most the the projects people do here. Those are the primary controllers used. Others exist but the people who use those can easily convert from C. So to benefit the most people I think C examples should be used.

And I someone doesn't know C... I'm in for the project but I only know Basic that far...

I think that pseudo code is the best solution... Someone can program his micro to do whatever, give the starting program but also a pseudo code in order to enable others who don't know that specific language BOTH compiler to work with the whole concept of the book, project, whatever call it...


That's my point of view... but not only because I don't know C...

Lefteris
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: bietz on May 08, 2008, 06:53:23 AM
yeah, and actually MSRS would be kind of painful, because it has a pretty steep learning curve, and its architecture is very different from usual things (it's all about services, concurrency and coordination, which is what robotics really needs).
But MSRS also has a Visual Programming Language (VPL), which allows you to create programs by just dragging and dropping blocks (again, both for simulation and the real robot). So that should be pretty easy to understand, even for those who can't program. (not that we have to use MSRS as the main platform. It could actually also be just a choice)
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 08, 2008, 07:17:09 AM
it will be microcontroller based not computer based
I was thinking of actually printing the book out in paperback. It wouldn't be that expensive , because it would be all black and white and I see a pretty big market for it .

We might post a free pdf version online and print a  paperback version , because many people ( including me ) would prefer to have  a hard copy  rather than an online version.

As for who gets paid , I'm not sure how that will work. So for now :anyone that submits their article is agreeing that they will not be upset and will not argue if they don't get any money from it. The reason i want to do this project is because it would be pretty cool to have a robotics book out there with an article that I wrote in there. I'm pretty sure that's the reason for the rest of you guys writing an article.  So remember , whoever submits an article , you aren't doing it for the money.

Deadline is the first of August for all articles to be submitted.

Here is how an article should be written:
1. Short summary of what the algorithm does, Purpose of the algorithm
2. How the algorithm works in regular english
3. Pseudo code of the algorithm
4. Sample circuit schematic to support algorithm on  both a PIC and on an AVR
5. Actual code in BASIC and in C

We will need to choose the standard PIC and AVR that will be used in the sample circuit schematic.

Also, we should include both  BASIC and C code. For those who don't know C or for those who don't know BASIC , just post the code you do know and then someone here on the forum will translate your BASIC code or maybe just your pseudo code into C.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 08, 2008, 07:27:00 AM
superchicku,, i cant do both image processing and pathfinding thats too much
ill just do A* pathfinding and yea dikstra's algorithm is a part of A* ,it will be included in my article.

i think that algorithms could be mcu based or computer based,as the algorithm can be extended and that would need more processing power.
i think a psuedo code is GREAT
i dont support writing a C code or BASIC code as i told before, implementing can be done in different ways.

a psuedo code is enough, i think,but adding some C or basic code wont harm.

about MSRS i dont think thats a good idea as long as this is not widely used, we want a book that every beginner can benefit from.

about making money out of it ,true airman, everyone should be doin this not for money,free book is better.
 also , i dont think its appropriate to let other people make money out of it while we are the ones who did it,,right?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: bietz on May 08, 2008, 07:48:43 AM
it will be microcontroller based not computer based
Well, MSRS doesn't need computer-based robots: most robots used with MSRS have a microcontroller and basically have a program that continuously sends sensor data to the computer and receives back motor data (through bluetooth or wifi, for instance).

But I agree that MSRS is certainly a bad idea for the book, since it's not the purpose, but the robot could also have an msrs program for the microcontroller which would allow to use MSRS instead. Having MSRS programs for algorithms would allow really anybody to try them out, even if they can't buy real hardware (simulation is there), but again, this is probably not the purpose of all this. It could just be an addition.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Kohanbash on May 08, 2008, 08:20:42 AM
Quote
i dont think its appropriate to let other people make money out of it while we are the ones who did it,,right?
It takes a lot of work to go from the writings to the book...
I think an agreement that if the book makes more than $4000 (or some other number)  profit than we split profits between authors would be reasonable.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 08, 2008, 08:27:33 AM
heres what I plan to do:
review everyones article
Those that are accepted will make their way into the book

It will first be a free ebook and then I will try to arrange it to become a paperback book.
Please note that if I invest money into making it a paperback book I will keep the profits ( which I don't expect to be a lot ) If it becomes a lot of money in profits I will then give some money to those who wrote articles.
If someone else wants to join me and invest into making this a book ( that means putting in money and a ton of time to get it published) contact me . I feel that only those who invest time and money into publishing the book deserve to keep the small profit I think will emerge. This paperback will come out after the free ebook.

I ( and hopefully other people will join)will do a ton of work and invest the money that is needed to go from writings to book. If the book is a success and there is a lot of profits than maybe some money will go to the authors. . Authors may or may not get paid in the end , but those who invest money into it have a greater chance of getting paid.

Is everyone cool with that?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 08, 2008, 09:48:42 AM
heres what I plan to do:
review everyones article
Those that are accepted will make their way into the book

It will first be a free ebook and then I will try to arrange it to become a paperback book.
Please note that if I invest money into making it a paperback book I will keep the profits ( which I don't expect to be a lot ) If it becomes a lot of money in profits I will then give some money to those who wrote articles.
If someone else wants to join me and invest into making this a book ( that means putting in money and a ton of time to get it published) contact me . I feel that only those who invest time and money into publishing the book deserve to keep the small profit I think will emerge. This paperback will come out after the free ebook.

I ( and hopefully other people will join)will do a ton of work and invest the money that is needed to go from writings to book. If the book is a success and there is a lot of profits than maybe some money will go to the authors. . Authors may or may not get paid in the end , but those who invest money into it have a greater chance of getting paid.

Is everyone cool with that?


Well, to tell the truth... nope...
I think that it's a book about beginners right, then the lowest the price the more people to have the book...
First of all, those who have written at least one article of this book get a hard copy for free (well if postal costs is a problem then we will arrange this...)
Secondly, I know you will run all the efforts about having the book printed and such, but I still like having no profits after all...
You do it because you want to, not to make any profits... Still, the only thing I want is my name to be heard....
And, most importantly... who determines that the profits are small and so... problems even bad hearts will occur....
So...
I think that any price we place should just cover the printing costs, and nothing more...
But If someone insists on placing a bigger price, let that money cover our needs in electronics material...

Also, I feel like all of us must place our work on solid ground, meaning that we FIRST give out information about
how to build the whole project, the cads, the schematics, some other pictures and so on and then the algorithms...
That way the reader knows what he reads... and why is that so... And most tutorials on the forum are based on the same concept like
the 50$ robot...

Thirdly... I know it's much more difficult to accomplish, but it should be nice for all of us how are building the projects on the book
base our works on the same electronics... Cases may and should vary in order to give ideas to readers... but microcontrollers  and
on board equipment no...
So... we give the basic schematics of our Main Processing Unit and we are to go....
If PICs are used then we should give details... PICs are on the untouchable for many, most of them require programmers and
JDM ones don't worl all the time fine...
If we are to use Atmel due to their nature and probable use of ATmega series we should also give schematics... and how we program them...
We may also include some JDM programmers as well...
And given all we have access to a certain microcontroller we all base our projects there...
I vote for ATMEGA8535...
If other than basic 8bit RISC Atmel controllers are used we also give schematics...
And like that... if someone got what I said...


We can't base our book only in algorithms... readers need feedback...
Think as a noob reader after all...


All these require much effort, but at least I'm in...

Lefteris
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Asellith on May 08, 2008, 10:00:45 AM
I thought this was an algorithm reference manual sorta thing not a newbie 50 projects to do with robotics book? I thought this was going to be more like a standard programming language reference manual. Just page after page of algorithm examples and math calculations with short descriptions. That way when I need to implement A* into my robot I go to the A* section look over the math and pseudo code. Then use that to start programing the module I want for my robot. I don't want to know how you tested it or what electronics you used. (maybe a link to a tutorial on the robot you built to test it) But the book should just be about the algorithms and implementation on those. Or at least that was my understanding
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 08, 2008, 10:47:01 AM
I thought this was an algorithm reference manual sorta thing not a newbie 50 projects to do with robotics book? I thought this was going to be more like a standard programming language reference manual. Just page after page of algorithm examples and math calculations with short descriptions. That way when I need to implement A* into my robot I go to the A* section look over the math and pseudo code. Then use that to start programing the module I want for my robot. I don't want to know how you tested it or what electronics you used. (maybe a link to a tutorial on the robot you built to test it) But the book should just be about the algorithms and implementation on those. Or at least that was my understanding

It should be both.... or at least this is my part... you can't do precise gripping without a gripper...
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 08, 2008, 11:07:05 AM
It will be an algorithms manual but like TrickyNekro said , you need to explain a little about grippers if your article deals with them

The whole profits issue can be solved easily
I and whoever else wants to join, will invest a lot of money and time printing the book into paperback.

The money invested by me would total a couple hundred dollars.
Then we would charge a slight profit on each book , so that the profits would pay back the investors and maybe some money for each author. 
Each author would receive a copy of the book for free ( included in the money that I invest)

If we see that there ends up being a lot of profits we can make a Robot Fund. Every month or two a certain project tutorial ( which is chosen by vote) will be funded by that extra profit. Or maybe funding could be given in steps for multiple projects that require money ( flying robots , anyone?)

Everyones names will be included in the book. I'm not doing this for the money, just for the glory.

The standard robot reference for each article is genius ! The robot does not necessarily have to have a step by step tutorial for it , or even have to exist. All it has to be is an abstract robot platform  . Then each article would use a certain CAD and just modify it for the articles needs ( add sensors , etc.)

I could design such a robot , but I would use sketchup since it is free. We just need to decide on specs  ( the shape , dimensions , etc. )
 
I would make multiple versions of it  ( using servos , using DC motor , using legs, etc.) Each author would merely have to add on sensors to it.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 08, 2008, 11:21:35 AM
also the algorithms need to be geared to what I beginner can use ( not heavy stuff like FFT   :o  )

A* is a bit complex but it has applications for beginners

Dictionary of Algorithms - http://www.nist.gov/dads/  ( thanks pomprocker)
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Asellith on May 08, 2008, 12:03:58 PM
Umm I know we are all cool here and I am not at this time planing to contribute anything but my 2 cents so here it goes. With the author/publisher arrangements being as fluid as they seem to be now a legal document of some sort should be created and signed by all parties to save everyone hassle later. Particularly you Airman because if your running things and this thing takes off (you never know what will happen) and you make a lot of money then the authors need to know in specific terms what they are entitled to. I would recommend that even between friends and what we are talking about here is as it stands now a loss collaboration between people who have and most likely will never meet in person. I just don't want this to come back and bite anyone and prevent something good from happening when proper communication and some terms laid out on paper with a signature will make things go so much smoother.

Also check out www.cafepress.com (http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/storeref.aspx?refby=jonbowen234)

this will let you print a book as you want. You can compile the book and set the markup to $0 so it just costs the buyer the cost of production. Plus the bit that cafepress keeps. so for 0 money down you can make the book available. They come in different sizes and bindings. Could also produce a companion CD to go with it for more money that would have a custom logo and all the source code/pictures and other data already on the disk.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 08, 2008, 12:21:42 PM
1st of all please dont make it commercial at the  moment it seems nobody reads my post as i said earlier all the beginner wants is to learn and having 0 knowledge of anything he starts out and what does he find , there are so many books out there costing him $$$ but he doesnt know what to choose so if we keep it free for the time being, more beginners will take it as their 1st choice coz its FREE and then when the book bcomes popular we can attach our trademarks and make it buyable .

As for the algorithms and all i would like to mention something so many ppl here talking abt them but essentially this book is going to be for beginners so what use are these algorithms for the beginners if they dont know how to write embedded C for the specific microcontrollers they use, so i suggest that i submit some tutorials abt AVR programming and someone else on PIC since these are the 2 most widely used controllers and these be included on the beginning of the book so that the begiinner knows how and where to start , then we can arrange the algorithms in increasing order of their difficulty and their respective pseudocodes .

If my idea is ok then lets work on that as it will be more beginner friendly and ill be more than happy writing some basic avr programming tutorials for the book which i have been wanting to do so far..
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 08, 2008, 12:30:33 PM
there will be a free ebook version online  and a paperback version

a legal document is needed so we dont have any confusion , who will prepare it ?

I like my idea of charging maybe ~ 1 dollar extra per book and then maybe ~50 cents of that will be split among authors based on how many articles they write and the other 50 cents goes into a tutorial contest fund. Basically the 200 dollar robot tutorial but like every month or two

a small tutorial in the beginning of the book for using AVR and PIC is not really needed, there are sooo many online  ( one of which I even wrote  ;D )


Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 08, 2008, 12:34:57 PM
I totally agree...

The matter fact is that Internet is not a good place for such arrangements anyway...
Things are fluid yes.. every fluid... so I suggest writing the tutorials just here in the members area...
And then If we all agree make a book...

For example...
You see admin here encourage us to write
tutorials by contests and I'm joining every time for the fun and maybe the glory...
But there are advertisements here on the forum... meaning that the more people we attract by
our projects the more money he get... But of course the forum is well maintained so I don't mind
that at all....


My point is that noone is doing anything for the soul of his very one mother...
We all pursue something with our job and time... For one is glory, for others
personal satisfaction of being thanked, for others................ etc etc etc.....


So if we are to publish a book, we should make several bank accounts with all
earnings being shared to any author.... Legalizing maybe a problem cause
we are separated far each other...




But first things first, let's get down writing good tutorials...
And as soon as we are finished we can see farer...

For now... let's get down to work...

Lefteris
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: paulstreats on May 08, 2008, 12:40:46 PM
My points of view:

1) the book should be a book of algoythms and not complete pojects (were not interested in a gripper, just the algorythms that are used. Do they have a name? surely if you have a good algorythm and progress it, it can be used for more things than just a gripper. Controlling a gripper is a program and not an algorythm so work out what algorythms are working in the program then give them a name say what they do and submit them).

2)If somebody wnts to print a book then fair play. Keep the profits. As long as people get credit for their work.

3)My whole thoughts are a book that is continuously added to meaning there is no submission date. But if I come up with an algorythm in the future that can compare 2 images from a camera and extract rich complex object data then how do I share it if the cookbook submission date has pssed and no more entries get added to it?

4)Rather than specifying microcontroller types etc.. whay not just have a standard naming convention so if an algorythm on a PIC is comparing the value on PORTAbits.A0. Write it as analog_port_0 so if you are using an avr, you can easily understand what it is meaning (make them generic rather than pltform aimed). You would probably find that provided they are done in ANSI compliant C, then it isnt necessarry to aim them at a particular processor, The algorythm should work on all (look at included algorythms with the C language to make clear what a good algorythm is. Take the ITOA algorythm for example its included in nearly all distros of the C language. It doesnt change in structure or content but it works on all compilers and for all platforms)

5)Its nice to see people wanting to do high level stuff but also remember that basic algorythms also want to be included such as basic trig. maybe a data sorting algorythm (once youve stored your sensor data, you need an algorythm to sort the data and search it for future comparing)

6)Also the question over pc based/ microcontroller based targetting was suggested. Its important to realise that it was only 15years ago(at the most) that pc's were running on 20mhz processors running 3d computer games etc... Microcontrollers re slow compared to modern computers but are you really expecting them to do everything that your pc does now? (think about how much processing power is used by the operating system alone not to mention how many threads they must be running)
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Asellith on May 08, 2008, 01:37:38 PM
The "legal document" doesn't have to be much. It is just a paper detailing out the terms and conditions of submitting an article for publication. Anyone could write it just something that can be mailed or emailed and faxed back that has a signature on it before an article is used. Its just a formality that covers everyone from misunderstanding.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 08, 2008, 02:07:35 PM
The "legal document" doesn't have to be much. It is just a paper detailing out the terms and conditions of submitting an article for publication. Anyone could write it just something that can be mailed or emailed and faxed back that has a signature on it before an article is used. Its just a formality that covers everyone from misunderstanding.

yep

who wants to write it up?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 08, 2008, 03:17:15 PM
My points of view:

1) the book should be a book of algoythms and not complete pojects (were not interested in a gripper, just the algorythms that are used. Do they have a name? surely if you have a good algorythm and progress it, it can be used for more things than just a gripper. Controlling a gripper is a program and not an algorythm so work out what algorythms are working in the program then give them a name say what they do and submit them).



Man we want to help noobs or just to show off with our algorithms...
No... we want to help people...
For instance... What is a Microcontroller is a e - book from parallax...
It's highly impossible to read it and not learn at least something helpful or even advanced...
The thing is we want to help... and that's my point for everyone... everyone...

Not just algorithms and math types... Pictures, complete projects and so on...
We can find algorithms on the net... complex ones, about almost everything and such...
But it's even impossible to find good completed projects that cleanly describe what the micro is doing
and help the reader learn...

It's the duty of the most advanced people like us to help the others who don't know...
And we don't help noobs with some lines... we help with pictures, we help with many
examples, we help with our troubles reversed... and so on...

At least, that's what I'm gonna do... My style of writing is this... I won't oblige anyone to write this way...

Hope I get as much support as I can't for this point of view... :-\

And as I said, first things first... Let us write our tutorials here on the forum and then
let us speak about the book.... ::)

Lefteris
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 08, 2008, 03:21:51 PM

But it's even impossible to find good completed projects that cleanly describe what the micro is doing
and help the reader learn...
Exactly, thats the whole point of this project.

but to do this we need to adopt my idea of a standard robot platform  - I can make a 3D one on sketchup but I'll do it next week ( crazy busy now)  what do you guys think of this universal abstract robot platform idea?

uploading it to the members tutorial first is also fine

TrikyNekro understands what this is all about!
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 08, 2008, 03:23:24 PM
1/about this legal paper,,
we are from different nationalities and countries,
 man i dont think that paper means anything,,or how is it the things go by?

2/i think this is algorithms book, not a book for a total noob,,

3/do include as many languages as you can, but a pseudo code is a must.

4/internet is fullllllllllll of noob tutors, we need somthing alittle more advanced

5/this book can be updated each year, he first of august so people can add to their algorithms, open new sections,
maybe the book can be extended to more than just algorithms book

6/airman00 , i guess your the person to manage all this, make a post like the 200$ robot contest post to let only the people who wants to write in the book post there with their article sunject

7/about money,,,, i think let the book comes free pdf , the printed version can be sold
but if the profit comes more than a specific number then the authors should be paid too.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 08, 2008, 03:28:23 PM
again people,, for noobs there are plenty of stuff online and they wont pay a dime for a book, or even bother to download it
the internet is a huge source of information for noobs so the book would be just another book
my idea was to make somthing BIG,, not another noob book
noobs have SoR to learn from, actually noobs would like to ask questions in the forum more than reading a book.

i say let the book be a little more advanced than for noobs,, lets get it into a higher level.

the tutorial in this website are for noobs, so let the book be somthing more advanced
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 08, 2008, 03:30:55 PM
the book should be aimed for a person with some background ( the knowledge level of someone who built the equivalent of the 50 dollar robot )

as for the post with all the articles ,ill make that tonight'

anyone want to write a demo article?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 08, 2008, 03:37:36 PM
great , so the points that are set till now are

1/ Algorithms book (for people with backgrounds ,at least read the 50$ tutorial)

2/first of august is the last date to send your articles to airman00

3/psuedo code is a MUST


the things we should agree about:

1/the whole money thing

2/the file extention to send the article (office word?, wordpad?)

Any other stuff i forgot?

Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 08, 2008, 03:45:52 PM
upload your pages to the members tutorials  , so then we have universal format. then I'll download it from there and compile it all into .pdf format.

I spoke with Admin and he said that we should post all articles in the members tutorials under the Topic " SoR Book "
from the extra revenue that Admin gets from more hits to SoR for that ebook pages , Admin will hold more robot contests which will end up including articles as entries

do you all agree about the whole standard abstract robot idea?


the money issue we'll worry about later , after everyone submits their article

I'll add in all these guidelines into the main page for SoR at the members pages once we are sure about all the points
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 08, 2008, 03:51:14 PM
come on folks lets knock it hard,, we want a bomb book.... 8)

by the way,, i have 2 things to do now for SoR,,

1/the 200$ contest (hacking optical mouse)

2/Algorithm book  (A*)

yeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 08, 2008, 04:01:50 PM
yep everyone aim to submit their articles by August 1st

I will be emailing reminders to those who pledged articles every month to remind them to write it

How many articles are we aiming for in total?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 08, 2008, 04:04:17 PM
i think it should be 5 as minimum
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 08, 2008, 04:09:32 PM
i think it should be 5 as minimum

thats it???


how long are we expecting each article to be ( # of pages , this includes pics and diagrams , etc.)
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 08, 2008, 05:02:22 PM
well actually the more is always the better

about pages,,i dunno,, maybe 10 each article? 7?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: paulstreats on May 08, 2008, 05:14:51 PM
Since there is a lot of confusion over this subject, I will probably be hosting my own algorythmn and basic circuit resource area. When I first suggested the algorythm cookbook, thats what I was thinking. As newbies to robotics people would actually find it difficult to take in the entire concept of building the robot, understanding the electronics and then understanding the programming, I think that the $50 robot on this site is about as basic to understand as you can get but how many people have you seen on the board have problems with it?

I want to build a reference archive where if i wanted to see how a kalman filter was used i could look it up in an index and see a working code example with psuedocode/block diagrams. This is how I learnt to program (from 9 years old). and am still learning like this by looking at code pieces not just copying an entire project.

Once Ive got the structure ready, I'll post a link for people to edit. The reference will be free and hopefully printer friendly.


(ps.. no offence, but the book has turned into a new version of the user tutorials on this site. If you want to publish whole projects and you have them ready why not just enter them as user tutorials?)
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 08, 2008, 05:28:46 PM
we will enter them as member tutorials !!!
Then I can compile it into an all in one .pdf file

and then publish it in paperback



you want something sorta like this
http://editor.altervista.org/
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 09, 2008, 02:01:34 AM
When I was talking about noobs I was not thinking complete noobs...
I was thinking noobs to our field...

I think paulstreats is right... And that's what I was talking about... both schematics and build up information and then algorithms and such...

And airman... the same platform idea is nice... but... not possible... at least more me...
You see I live in Greece and I don't have either access to a mill so things are pretty rough...
I was talking about the same electronics platform... same controller same circuit...
How anyone materialize this is another fact...

I'll give here a short example. That's a board, I have designed, yet to materialize it, but I think it's in working condition...

Please have a look at the zip....
And tell me your thoughts...


Lefteris
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 09, 2008, 03:16:36 AM
Quote
I want to build a reference archive where if i wanted to see how a kalman filter was used i could look it up in an index and see a working code example with psuedocode/block diagrams.
this is what im talking about
you go to the index and you see

1/A*
2/kalman filter
3/line following
4/gripper control  (a PID here would be perfect)
.
.
.
etc


i dont urge you guys to start from 0 with beginners in this book as SoR does that, my thought was to extend our tutors to the next level
not redo whats already in this website

and No, its not about taking a ready made projects, example
i would put my optical mouse interface project in the members page for the 200$ contest but that wont be included in the algorithm book
i will write about A* in the members pages just to include it in the book, i wont show a robot that does A*, just explaining the algorithm deeply and explaiining some technichs and some pseudo code.

i hope this is clear enough

Quote
That's a board, I have designed, yet to materialize it, but I think it's in working condition...
nice one trickynekro , is this by EAGLE?
anyways did you try if its workin properly?

 ,i guess robots doesnt need a board with Lcd,,right?
can this be programed on board?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 09, 2008, 04:34:58 AM
good work we are on then let the book strat from zero to hero what kinda algorithms can i donate ??
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 09, 2008, 04:47:27 AM
Quote
what kinda algorithms can i donate ??
you are the only one who can answer this  ;D
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 09, 2008, 05:48:23 AM
TrikyNekro:

I was talking about an abstract CAD robot which would be a standard design to show layout of sensors , etc. on the robot
It would not have to be built. Just add sensors through Google Sketchup

As for standard electronic circuit
How about we just make it like a module . Have line outputs or inputs with labels saying something like " this connects to an analog port" or "this connects to +5"

Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 09, 2008, 06:17:22 AM
TrikyNekro:

I was talking about an abstract CAD robot which would be a standard design to show layout of sensors , etc. on the robot
It would not have to be built. Just add sensors through Google Sketchup

As for standard electronic circuit
How about we just make it like a module . Have line outputs or inputs with labels saying something like " this connects to an analog port" or "this connects to +5"



Look... I can do something like this...

Just give me some hours...
Look the problem is that I try to avoid two layer boards as hell... since all the boards I have are made by me (well there are exceptions...)...
And I don't know if anyone here in my country offers two layer...
But it's not the two layers the problem really... it's the holes that much connect the two layers and that's not so easy to get here...

Well...

I think I'll have it by today...

benji:
I'm eagle yes! Quite a powerful program but misses some important libraries...

BTW, does anyone have a library for eagle for the ADIS16100ACC by analog devices???



Cheers,
Lefteris
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 09, 2008, 02:48:41 PM
also include a regular schematic , not only the PCB layout

ill work up a guideline this weekend
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 09, 2008, 02:58:13 PM
also include a regular schematic , not only the PCB layout

ill work up a guideline this weekend

Well, in the previous zip I had both... sure things...
And this is as it has been requested...

Look at the zip:  (at least I can do no better, sorry... :D)
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 09, 2008, 03:24:16 PM
so whats with the book post airman? i suggest you make one like the 200$ post so everyone who wants to write up post there the name of their article , this way everyone
would be able to know what the book would looklike and what subjects included,how many subjects also.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 09, 2008, 03:37:56 PM
lol ill do it right now
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 09, 2008, 03:47:02 PM
Airman... I'm writing the tutorials for at least being free online...
Paperbook or not my tutorials will at SoR here at the member pages for free.... period...

(Or at least this is what I understood by reading at member pages...)
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 09, 2008, 03:52:22 PM
all the tutorials will be online for free , i said that already
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Admin on May 11, 2008, 07:39:20 PM
I haven't had time to read through this post, so I'll get back to it when I have time.

But for now, I just wanted to say that you can enter your article into the robot contest (http://www.societyofrobots.com/free_robot_contest.shtml) for a chance to win additional money from it.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 12, 2008, 12:10:03 AM
would love to
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 12, 2008, 03:35:00 AM
so ,,can i enter with 2 things in the robot contest?
i was planning to write about the optical mouse hacking for the contest
and the A* algorithm for the book

can i enter both in the contest? as two seperate things or in one page?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Webbot on May 12, 2008, 02:47:29 PM
If people are submitting code in a variety of languages BASIC, C,  etc etc and for a number of different controllers then aren't you producing something that is only 10% relevant to Joe Bloggs? (Sorry not intentially being negative). Surely you should aim it at either one language/controller or give ALL of your examples in ALL of the languages/controllers that the book says it supports. So rather than having one person looking at algorithm 'A' in 'C' then you may actually also need other people to translate it into the other platforms/languages that the book is aimed at. Otherwise it will just end up as a random collection of ideas and will not have a target market.

Who is your target?

What languages/platforms/controllers will ALL of your examples support?

I'm trying to program my controller but am I using a Mac, Windows Xp/Vista/ Linux The options are endless. I believe (and sorry if you've already stated this somewhere else), that as well as focusing on 'What the robot will do' you MUST identify who IS, and ISN'T, supported by the book.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 12, 2008, 03:01:08 PM
i do prefer to include pseudo code as a must , this way anyone can see it and translate it into the language he/she wants to implement with.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 12, 2008, 03:10:01 PM
If people are submitting code in a variety of languages BASIC, C,  etc etc and for a number of different controllers then aren't you producing something that is only 10% relevant to Joe Bloggs? (Sorry not intentially being negative). Surely you should aim it at either one language/controller or give ALL of your examples in ALL of the languages/controllers that the book says it supports. So rather than having one person looking at algorithm 'A' in 'C' then you may actually also need other people to translate it into the other platforms/languages that the book is aimed at. Otherwise it will just end up as a random collection of ideas and will not have a target market.

Who is your target?

What languages/platforms/controllers will ALL of your examples support?

I'm trying to program my controller but am I using a Mac, Windows Xp/Vista/ Linux The options are endless. I believe (and sorry if you've already stated this somewhere else), that as well as focusing on 'What the robot will do' you MUST identify who IS, and ISN'T, supported by the book.

We will try to make people how an algorithm works... but algorithms aren't based on programming languages... it's vice versa....
So... we will try to give a pseudo code as benji suggested....
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Webbot on May 12, 2008, 04:49:36 PM
Pseudo code is great - but, if you are selling a book, then you will need to make it clear that there are 'NO working examples' - only pseudo code. So your target audience will need to be smart enough to sort stuff out themselves. Sorry - not trying to be negative - just trying to be realistic.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 12, 2008, 05:13:46 PM
I understand your concern Webbot but you need some sample code

You MUST have pseudo code
Then include code in either BASIC or C ( or both)
Put a comment by each line of code explaining it

Include documentation for the circuit / setup that the sample code applies to


You need sample code! Its a must , then the audience can reverse engineer it. Think about it , who would buy a book title "Book of Algorithms" - mostly people who know what an algorithm is and use microcontrollers.

Ill post up an outline tonight , I'm installing XP over vista , since vista can't run my programming programs well . Its a really piss off and the XP emulator suck. So once installation is done , ill post it up.
P.S. I have Ubuntu dual booted as well , :P so dont try to  convert me to use Linux , im already converted
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Webbot on May 12, 2008, 06:21:54 PM
Quote
You MUST have pseudo code
Then include code in either BASIC or C ( or both)

OK Airman -  so you've my covered my concern. Pseudo code is great as some may want to convert it to Java but so long as the 'cover' says 'examples in BASIC and C' then you're covered. Whereas if its JUST pseudo code then the book won't be good for newb'ies.

Upgrading to Vista - wow - speak to you in a few weeks !!!

Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 12, 2008, 09:54:08 PM
we can write algorithms in C we have trickynekro who uses basic , he can translate for us . I think these 2 languages would do as these are mostly used
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 13, 2008, 02:23:09 AM
sure the people who would be interested in (the book of algorithms) would have a big background in programming languages and interested in the algorithm more than how to translate it into a programming language(easier part)
plus this makes the book prefered by all programmers ,,java,C,basic,matlab,lisp,,,,,,etc

so the book afterall isnt for a true newbie, its for someone who is interested in getting the second step in robotics lets say
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 13, 2008, 04:43:50 AM
beginner or expert anyone can see the book of algorithms and use it
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 14, 2008, 05:41:22 PM


Upgrading to Vista - wow - speak to you in a few weeks !!!



actually downgrading to XP from vista , lol

I still have to do that outline .......... lol I have no time ! I'll get started tonight and finish it tomorrow .
Has anyone gotten started on their article yet?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 15, 2008, 02:15:18 AM
Quote
Has anyone gotten started on their article yet?
not me ,, now im  very busy with my final year project (a hexapod) and the exams are 2 weeks from today
so ill do all the SoR stuff once i finish my exams
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 15, 2008, 02:38:17 AM
Me nop... five days to exams...

Also, if samples from analog arrive I'll be doing a autopilot system...
Get a hold on...


Cheers,
Lefteris
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 15, 2008, 06:32:32 AM
me also not started working for the $200 robot contest , trickynekro autopilot using what??
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 15, 2008, 07:25:50 AM
me also not started working for the $200 robot contest , trickynekro autopilot using what??

A dual rotor coaxial helicopter...

It's a little bit fat dream but with work I'll get to it...
I already have some gyros and I wait for the accelerometers...
Also I'm thinking of buying STK600 or AVR dragon... Probably the STK...
Although I haven't searched for pricing for the STK1000 it's probably gonna be too expensive...
And I'm not interested in AVR32 yet... I want to see what the AVR16 (ATxMEGA series) got to offer...
Surely the 32MHz speed well suit my needs for the autopilots since I saw autopilot with adruino...

And I also need a oscilloscope...
A guy can give me his old Tektronix for 500E... It's still a very good price and it's in good shape too... (I know the guy
and he hasn't really used it too...) (and he said that particular model was used in US military some years before...)
It's at 100MHz so I still think it's good... perhaps I'll lower the price too... I'm tough at trading... :P

And I will also intro myself to Eagle 5.0. There aren't many differences but it's hell more pleasant to use...

Also I'm thinking of buying a drill and a UV lamp for my boards...

You see if I get to university I'll do some serious business and I'll really need many stuff like this...
So... I gotta spent some money first to improve the quality of my work first...

Cause I really only run on a inexpensive but at least good multimeter right now...
First of all I got to go get gfs, some rest, some Aegean isles wind and some sun,
some gym practice first of all, some drinks, perhaps a motorbike... 8) and of course a job... part time....
Hell all that in a summer... puff... I need rest... someone spear me... :'(

I know you don't really mind about all these stuff... :D but I gotta tell someone anyway... ::)

So... Cheers...
Lefteris...

BTW... I need rest.... :P :P :P :P :P
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 15, 2008, 09:11:38 PM
trickynekro i also thought earlier of working on an autonomous helicopter but there are problems , u see some of my seniors made this project which was rc not autonomous and they had much difficulty controlling it , if U want i am also interested in such a project may be we can share our ideas and all but my suggestion it make it semi automatic coz if anything goes wrong on the top while ur testing it then say bye bye to everything.. by the way if u are using the accelerometer then it i sufficient to give u tilt , acceleration and angle wrt gravity then why are u using a gyrometer?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 16, 2008, 04:23:26 AM
just a question about this helicopter thing,, are you guys tottaly aware of FLYING?
i mean the aeromechanics,, how much should you push air?,,,,aero stuff in general,,any studies about that?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 16, 2008, 06:54:47 AM
just a question about this helicopter thing,, are you guys tottaly aware of FLYING?
i mean the aeromechanics,, how much should you push air?,,,,aero stuff in general,,any studies about that?

Me nope... But I got some RC heli flying hours...

The first step is to learn how to counter counter-rotation with a gyroscope...
Here I need some libraries for Eagle... (any help here????)
I'll be using the ADIS16100ACC... And I don't have a board for it... I must build it...

Then I do studying how to hold position by a dual axis accelerometer.

I also know some physics on the helis... how torque is produced, and generally how stuff works...
And I'll be doing also more and more research...

If anyone can offer more help he is more than welcome...

Lefteris
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 16, 2008, 08:45:27 AM
i cant offer u help but iam also thinking of making such a thing if u want we can share some theories do some research together and make the thing what u say
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 16, 2008, 09:03:44 AM
well good luck with that ,,expect too many crashes,, how big the helli is gonna be?how much weight?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Private Reid on May 16, 2008, 06:05:50 PM
Wait a second?

I havn't posted here in while, but that doen't mean i havn't been reading


How is making a helicopter KEEPING IT SIMPLE?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 16, 2008, 11:14:38 PM
makin a helicopter isnt simple at all and making a autonomous one is ultrakill , there are lots of risks and difficulty involved also the cost factor is high that is why i am not making it mainly because of the cost but if tricknekro wants to do it then why not help him may be we can make it together
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 17, 2008, 01:09:25 AM
well good luck with that ,,expect too many crashes,, how big the helli is gonna be?how much weight?

Small and agile able to hold some batteries and the boards... The batteries usually come pre-installed and the boards
are light so no worries here...

To make this clear... total autopilot is not an overkill but it's very difficult and I would need much budget for sensors...
I was talking about a co-pilot autopilot... or at least some systems that would help you from crushing...
And maybe I will also involve some simple sensors for object detection...

And the remote and the receiver will be made by me and only... I guess a lot of people would like that!!!

Anyways... I have nothing more to say....

Cheers,
Lefteris...
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 17, 2008, 10:03:51 AM
hmm are u using an already made chassis of a toy helicopter ??? then  think it wone be very difficult but if u want full automation then iam interested in it ..
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 17, 2008, 01:06:59 PM
hmm are u using an already made chassis of a toy helicopter ??? then  think it wone be very difficult but if u want full automation then iam interested in it ..

Not a toy... a full RC cause in toys you can't find pitch control and such...

And every single electronic part will be made by me...
And also not full automatic... you see still I need a GPS and such things... making it quite difficult...
cause of limited budget...


I'll see man... I'll see and do alike...
You see I mostly need help with parts, especially finding them...


Lefteris
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 17, 2008, 10:46:39 PM
yes gps will be very costly also u need to learn how to use them, not good if u have limited time but if not fully automatic then i think ull be able to achieve it.... also i want to lern abt the electronics ur going to use if u need any kind of research just tell me i can get them for u
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 18, 2008, 02:57:00 AM
is it totally autonomous or remotly controlled?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 18, 2008, 05:02:12 AM
semi autonomous...
Some control will exist in first states... it's impossible not to...
Then it comes automatic take off and most importantly landing...

And final stage will be way pointing with GPS...

And all these will for the SoR contest...


To ADMIN:
I know member pages are not for blog like situations BUT... That project can only be completed in stages...
So as far as I have a stage done, I will provide dates, how to, building info, coding info, physics info general info, how I got the parts and so on...
I may also provide my real name here cause it's obvious this project is nice to be heard of... (no contact info)

But I insist on stage like project appearance, cause the whole thing is very complicated...
I wait for confirmation....


Lefteris
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 18, 2008, 07:05:35 AM
gps waypointing will be cool may be u can make a tutorial abt it after u complete it
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 18, 2008, 07:17:00 AM

To ADMIN:
I know member pages are not for blog like situations BUT... That project can only be completed in stages...
So as far as I have a stage done, I will provide dates, how to, building info, coding info, physics info general info, how I got the parts and so on...



Why?

It should be written like any tutorial , take the 50 dollar robot tutorial as example. Remember the tutorial should have a focus on the program aspect of it , and only a bit of background info to understand the concept , for the robot itself
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 18, 2008, 08:54:49 AM

To ADMIN:
I know member pages are not for blog like situations BUT... That project can only be completed in stages...
So as far as I have a stage done, I will provide dates, how to, building info, coding info, physics info general info, how I got the parts and so on...



Why?

It should be written like any tutorial , take the 50 dollar robot tutorial as example. Remember the tutorial should have a focus on the program aspect of it , and only a bit of background info to understand the concept , for the robot itself


You really think this can be done with such a project... You know how many things will be missing that way...
And how didn't liked the big spider bot video series (BTW I haven't seen any movement so far... Am I missing something???)

I won't be chatting I know what to do...
But this can't come in a package... It's impossible both for the writer and the reader...

The further the steps go the further will the difficulty be...
Mounting electronics as first steps....
battery management...
microcontroller communication...
gyroscope interface...
accelerometer interfacing...
countering the heli's natural torque...
controls interface...
tests... ( that's unavoidably gonna be blog like)
coding...
advanced coding....
way pointing...
battery consumption and travel distance...
advanced way pointing...
RC remote building...
take off...
landing...
proper place for landing...
tree detection...
videos...
videos...
videos...


Lots of work to do...

Lefteris
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on May 18, 2008, 08:59:40 AM
ohh I see

You are absolutely right!

but for the other tutorials which deal with less complex robotics , they will not need that much.

Can't wait to see the heli

are you gonna make a quadracopter or just a regular heli?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: superchiku on May 18, 2008, 11:19:01 AM
making an helicopter isnt complex its just tough coz u have to do research in so many things , if trickynekro makes a semi autonomous one, ill be making a fully autonomous one coz i already have the idea and the required resources just needed some motivation
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 18, 2008, 03:43:06 PM
Quote
making an helicopter isnt complex
i think landing would be
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 18, 2008, 03:47:41 PM
ohh I see

You are absolutely right!

but for the other tutorials which deal with less complex robotics , they will not need that much.

Can't wait to see the heli

are you gonna make a quadracopter or just a regular heli?

Actually I'm will to buy a coaxial dual rotor helicopter RC like the Russian KA-50 (NATO reporting Hokum) and mode it...
Buy I know a guy who plays a lot with RCs and may be able to give me a regular heli in a extreme low price...
I'll see...

And Yes that's a challenge a big one I know... but just imagine it crossing the skies...
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 18, 2008, 04:03:36 PM
Quote
making an helicopter isnt complex
i think landing would be

in fact landing may be more difficult than way pointing....
The helicopter not only must find an flat area to land and decent but also
it must check the surroundings... you see the rotors have mass... meaning
that if object exists in the way it may collide with blades even causing a crash...
for tackling this problem I'm aiming to use a heli to ground sonar... some trigonometry
and some sophisticated code...
And the bad thing is that can cost RAM and processing power...
And for better results in decent process I would need a accuracy 3 axis accelerometer...
But I think I'm good with a two axis one...

So that's for now...

Lefteris
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 19, 2008, 03:11:24 AM
how is it gonna see whats infront? to not let it bump into a wall or somthin
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 19, 2008, 03:20:33 AM
how is it gonna see whats infront? to not let it bump into a wall or somthin

Sonar or Sharp IR...
I have also read about optic flow but I don\t think it's practical outdoors....
And IR may have difficulties with the constant movement of the helicopter let alone the sun at outdoors...

But it's still an option for celling finding as the beam can pass through the spinning blades...
And generally quite many sensors.... if it's gonna be fully auto...

But first things first... tomorrow I start my exams finally... essay... pppoooffff....

Cheers,
Lefteris
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on May 19, 2008, 02:05:21 PM
considering fast movement of the helli i dont think you have any time to do scans.. so the sensor should be stabely directed at one point,
the ir wont do it under the sun,, a sonar is better for this
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 19, 2008, 03:20:24 PM
considering fast movement of the helli i dont think you have any time to do scans.. so the sensor should be stabely directed at one point,
the ir wont do it under the sun,, a sonar is better for this


I agree with ya... but I was talking about landing... the heli should be fixed in a position and then choose
if the position is correct to land... if not go elsewhere...

And a sonar with a accelerometer with do the job...
Consider the the Doppler effect and knowing the speed of the heli (or just something close...)
You just have the distance of the object ahead...

you see it's really all about physics and maths... so... don't really worry...
Budget is the big hit...

Lefteris
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Admin on May 25, 2008, 02:21:11 PM
Ok I finally read this really really really really long post :P

The $50 Robot is a great starting point for tutorials, as its a common open source platform many of you already have. And you wouldn't need to write a tutorial for everything, just on your special module you made for your own uses.

Yea benji, you can do more than one entry to the contest. The ad revenue I make from your tutorials pays for the prize money, so more entries means I hold the contest more often. But its always better to have one really good tutorial instead of two so-so quality articles.

Quote
But I insist on stage like project appearance, cause the whole thing is very complicated...
yeap Tricky, as you start your article you can add as you go. But the final version should be clear for someone to copy your robot design.

oh and tricky, i got myself one of those RC helis . . . crazy hard to control . . . but then a gear broke like 15 minutes after i started using it =(  if you make something that mixes the RC signal with stability control, I think that'd be a good first step!
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: TrickyNekro on May 26, 2008, 12:00:30 AM
That's the semi auto pilot I'll be doing first of all...

Some gyros and accelerometers will do...

Still I wait for that samples from analog.... hope they get here so I start working...

Anyways, I soon as I finish my exams, I 'll be working on it...

Cheers,
Lefteris
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on June 23, 2008, 03:59:52 PM
OK guys , I'm done with my exams and will start writing my article on July 1st ( i have a contest on june 29th )


what have you guys done so far?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on June 23, 2008, 04:21:10 PM
actually not much,, i still have a week to finish my exams
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on June 23, 2008, 05:51:28 PM
ok so next week I'll send out a reminder to start
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: photray94 on June 23, 2008, 07:49:20 PM
Hey Benji,

I'm somewhat experienced in programming...  I wouldn't mind pitching in.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on June 23, 2008, 07:51:09 PM
http://www.societyofrobots.com/member_tutorials/node/115


welcome to the team!   :D
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: photray94 on June 24, 2008, 01:13:04 AM
http://www.societyofrobots.com/member_tutorials/node/115


welcome to the team!   :D
Sorry, didn't understand how to interpret your post, the link to your soon to be book threw me off.  Am I on the team?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on June 24, 2008, 03:56:35 AM
hey photray , you can be one of the authors sure, just tell us what you are willing to write about
the book is called THE BOOK OF ALGORITHMS
so clearly you should write about an algorithm and a sample code implementation.
and you have to show how the algorithm can be usefull in a robot,,
you can still read this thread for more information
the main idea of the book its that we'r trying to make a second level tutorial in robotics
as we have the admins 50$ robot tutorial for the beginners
so we'r tryin to write about a little more advanced algorithms

i actually would recommend someone to write about PID and how to implement it on a robot,,as many questions are asked about it
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on June 24, 2008, 06:08:05 AM
the link I sent you describes the project that is detailed in this thread. And yes you are on the team if you write an article. The guidelines for writing an article is on that page I linked you to.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: photray94 on June 24, 2008, 04:44:10 PM
hey photray , you can be one of the authors sure, just tell us what you are willing to write about
the book is called THE BOOK OF ALGORITHMS
so clearly you should write about an algorithm and a sample code implementation.
and you have to show how the algorithm can be usefull in a robot,,
you can still read this thread for more information
the main idea of the book its that we'r trying to make a second level tutorial in robotics
as we have the admins 50$ robot tutorial for the beginners
so we'r tryin to write about a little more advanced algorithms

i actually would recommend someone to write about PID and how to implement it on a robot,,as many questions are asked about it


Hmmm, well, you'll have to give me some time.  Things are somewhat busy this summer so I'll see what I can do.  No guarantees.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: hazzer123 on June 24, 2008, 05:07:51 PM
I have already partly done a maze flooding algorithm that can be included in this project when finished.

Its the maze solving part of this tutorial - http://www.societyofrobots.com/member_tutorials/node/94
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on June 25, 2008, 01:35:56 AM
harry, if things are ready show em to airman00 for checking
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: photray94 on June 25, 2008, 03:52:49 AM
hey photray , you can be one of the authors sure, just tell us what you are willing to write about
the book is called THE BOOK OF ALGORITHMS
so clearly you should write about an algorithm and a sample code implementation.
and you have to show how the algorithm can be usefull in a robot,,
you can still read this thread for more information
the main idea of the book its that we'r trying to make a second level tutorial in robotics
as we have the admins 50$ robot tutorial for the beginners
so we'r tryin to write about a little more advanced algorithms

i actually would recommend someone to write about PID and how to implement it on a robot,,as many questions are asked about it


Hmmm... PID is pretty diverse.  I don't know a whole lot about it, but I do know PID control algorithms are mostly used in large-scale process industries.  I'll do some research for now.

But, I was thinking.  What about a small section of the book that's a crash course on straight up programming?  Although yes, it's assumed the reader has knowledge on programming before reading the book it'd be useful.  I could write a huge article on C or C++ if you'd like.  I'm much more a programmer then a robotocist, maybe this isn't the work for me  :-[
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on June 25, 2008, 04:56:56 AM
id still urge u to do pid  ;D
and its not only in nig industries no, it can be used in robots (arms)
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on June 25, 2008, 06:20:35 AM
we definitely need someone to do PID
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: hazzer123 on June 25, 2008, 05:31:40 PM
i could try to do it, but i wont be able to whip it up quickly, i have tonnes to do at home.

I have just made this flash app which can be in the tutorial when its finished. Here it is (http://www.iphone-free.co.uk/pidflash.htm)

Only Proportional control works at the moment.

When finished it will have all 3 P I and D, and some preset constant values which will demonstrate situations explained in the tutorial.

Whattdya think?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on June 25, 2008, 05:49:49 PM
nice work hazzer


I want to learn flash now , any tips or links for helpful sites?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on June 26, 2008, 01:42:55 AM
nice flash,, try to complete it and if you make a good explanation of how the PID works it would be awsome
you still have nearly a month till the 1st of august,,
if we can have some more intresting articles to be added and people cant get it ready till 1st august then
airman,,how about lettin it be on 1st spetember ?
i dunno, i strongly recommend this PID stuff
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: hazzer123 on June 26, 2008, 02:15:04 AM
Getting something done for the 1st of August will be impossible for me. 1st September is better.

For flash - there are some good video tutorials on lynda.com for flash. But if you are familiar with a few computer languages then after looking at a couple of source codes on the internet you will have no problem just diving straight in.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: photray94 on June 27, 2008, 01:52:41 AM
I guess I'm not much of an expert in this field, so I'm not going to try to write a professional or even sub-professional article for your book.  Trust me, you'll thank yourself.  Lol, I hereby quit the team I never officially joined, sorry!  ;)
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Kohanbash on July 03, 2008, 05:27:58 PM
Airman -
Is the book still on?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on July 03, 2008, 05:32:37 PM
ye for sure


I just got another contest due July 13 .... so it;ll be a little slow. I'll still be available to review others and arrange the compiling , etc.


what have you guys done so far, I;ve done nothing but outline my tutorial
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on July 08, 2008, 09:41:21 AM
July 8th.......

I have some progress to report
I wrote up around 2 pages so far on line following using IR sensors algorithms

anybody else get anything done?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on July 08, 2008, 09:47:08 AM
not much,, still workin on my hexapod, it should be ready for action next monday
,,if no oe started yet i guess we should make it the first of september,,
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on July 08, 2008, 09:58:13 AM
not much,, still workin on my hexapod, it should be ready for action next monday
,,if no oe started yet i guess we should make it the first of september,,

all right , fine i guess


I have to work on that instructables contest anyways . Do you know if the winner is chosen by votes only or by judges as well?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Kohanbash on July 09, 2008, 05:45:28 PM
I wrote a draft last month... But I still have to go over it and make it readable.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Private Reid on July 12, 2008, 07:21:28 PM
i don't believe it !
It's actually all coming together !
Nice work !
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on July 17, 2008, 11:31:01 AM
dudes we need more people writing articles!!!!

anyone gonna volunteer?
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on July 17, 2008, 04:04:53 PM
airman is right , 5 articles is pathetic,,we need folks to write ,,and write good stuff
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on July 17, 2008, 05:40:48 PM
I volunteer to write color detection and obstacle avoiding articles

thats a total of 7 now....


keep on volunteering people!
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Private Reid on July 19, 2008, 02:10:06 AM
Err, my cousin is doing someething to do with robotics at his UNI

Something about colour detection but in a really dense level, ill ask if he would like to say something.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on July 28, 2008, 03:34:10 PM
ive been checkin this thread everynow and then and apparently no one is donating to write articles,,
the thing is that i dont wanna waste time to make mine while the book would still be poor of articles,,

i would consider starting when there are more than 12 articles,,, lets wait n see
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Private Reid on July 29, 2008, 03:06:54 AM
Well my cousin isn't doing exactly what i thought, it's more to do with a computer realising what it's looking at.

And sorry i can't help with the articles, I'm not the brightest of people... :(
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Kohanbash on July 31, 2008, 06:05:39 PM
airman00-
Hey I have my chapter done. Where should I submit it to?
Thanks,
sdk32285
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on July 31, 2008, 06:31:17 PM
nice!


post it up in the members tutorials place for review
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on August 07, 2008, 03:56:15 PM
dudes we need more volunteers!!!!

If we don't get enough algorithms chapters then I might have to include member tutorials and some of Admin's tutorials into the book.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Webbot on August 07, 2008, 05:42:45 PM
dudes we need more volunteers!!!!

If we don't get enough algorithms chapters then I might have to include member tutorials and some of Admin's tutorials into the book.

Hmmm. So you 'sell' a book of 'our' freely donated tutorials? So: as a previous tutorial contributor do I get paid if my tutorial is included - and do you need my permission? As a potential purchaser of the book - do I get any more info over, and above,  what is freely available on the SoR website?

Not wanting to be negative but: unless it contributes lots of new stuff then it sounds like a directory of websites.

On a positive note - I like money! So if there are any tutorials 'missing' then I may be interested in contributing. Let me know subjects, deadlines, rewards etc.

Just to remind/motivate me: can I have the 'elevator pitch' - ie you have 15 seconds, in between floors,  to tell me what your book does, what I will learn, why I should buy it, why should I invest time/money in helping to create it, who is it targeted at !  Need to make sure its not a collection of rambling, un-connected, thought processes. Are you planning to sell via outlets: Borders, Amazon etc

Hey airman00: dont get me wrong - I dig 'the idea' - but think it currently lacks focus.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on August 07, 2008, 05:50:30 PM
I understand your concern

The plan is as follows: Collect a lot of tutorials of algorithms

Make a free eBook of it

Then after that is all done I will discuss with the other authors how the money issue will work
I promise I will not sell anything without the author's permission

It is basically a compilation of tutorials that available online. Its easier for people to buy a book with all the stuff organized and relevant to each other , than to search online for tutorials.  This book is aimed for people who perhaps do not have access to computers or would like a book for reference. People who have never heard of SoR can stumble onto this book on Amazon or something. I personally prefer a hard copy then an online copy.

Sure elevator pitch it is. :)
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: benji on August 08, 2008, 03:36:30 AM
my plan was to pick somthing (like vision or voice recognition) and everybody in SoR contribute in the research
so everyone can donate and benefit

id rather get back to my first idea than to continue in this book ,,as long as no one would volanteer to write somthin valueble
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Webbot on August 10, 2008, 02:43:57 PM
Thanks airman00

Ok - so that all kinda makes sense. I agree that a printed version is a lot easier to flick through and get ideas - unlike web searching where you need to know what it is that you are looking for before you start. And an eBook means you have no print costs.

If it also helps to promote SoR, and in turn generate more members with more ideas; more tutorials etc then this is a good thing for the robo-world and all of us.

I still believe that it would be useful to have a high-level view of the layout (ie chapter by chapter) of the book ie what are you covering e.g. micro-controllers, sensors, servos, motors etc and are you covering electronics and/or software? If its both then can a newbie get the book and then build something from start to finish - if so 'what'? You say 'a collection of tutorials and algorithms' - which sort of implies 'both'. Equally you say its for 'people who perhaps do not have access to computers' - so it cant just be algorithms. More importantly: a 'chapter by chapter' layout would identify what you need and then what's currently missing from the tutorials. Without this I still think you will have a book that is an un-focused collection of 'stuff' - and if someone buys it they may be surprised to realize that there isn't enough info to actually build a complete 'thing' (other than the $50 robot - say). Equally: would a more experienced person buy a 200 page book if the only bit they were interested in were pages 90 to 95 ? So: its almost like a project plan - what do you need, by when, and who will produce the missing stuff. I would suggest that on-going Forum posts aren't the place to have this plan as it becomes too long and rambling to try and find out what is the current status. It would be easier to have one page that you can continuously keep up to date. But, hey, thats just my view and I wish you well !!

Personally: I am happy for you to use my Stepper Motor and Motor Driver tutorials if they are relevant and good enough.
Commercially: I wouldn't say 'no' to a small payment for the time I have spent producing them (and to further fund my hobby!) - but beyond that I would gladly donate the money to a charity or to help fund any other SoR project/competition. (Seems like sending cheap components to Australia would be a big hit with the people there  ;D )
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on August 15, 2008, 03:54:58 PM
OK guys - heres what I think :

The book will be only algorithms. Some complex , some simple . My vision for this book is a book filled with algorithms that are explained very clearly.
Here are the categories of algorithms I want to include:
        1.  I want it to have algorithms for the types of sensors out there - sonar , IR , accelerometer, etc. A lot of information will be taken from the Forum about how to interface all those sensors. Only the common sensors of each sensor type will be selected - e.g. For sonar we will use the PING, the EZ1, and the SRF05. Each sensor would have around a page or two describing how it works and the code for it in BASIC and C .
       2.  Then there will be more algorithms that are not specifically for a certain sensor , but rather are generic - like maybe a A2D reading to matrix.
       3.   The other category of algorithms for the book would be algorithms for filtering ,such as the Kalman Filter.
       4.  If enough information is collected we can also do algorithms relating specifically to vision.
       5.  The final category would be algorithms relating specifically to types of robots. I understand that there are many ways to build a biped, so it will be the preference of the author of the biped tutorial to choose the design . Some types of robots I'm thinking of - sumo, line follower, biped, spider, quadraped,robot arm,follower robot.

The book will be a pretty big book and a majority of information will be taken from the forum - so that means less articles need to be written from scratch. I am not aiming to include every single sensor out there , but I do aim to include a lot of sensor-specific algorithms.

What do you guys think?

Also, I guess I'll have to extend the deadline for articles to another 6 months from now from lack of articles. If anyone has written one up please post it up by a member tutorial for review by the community.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Admin on August 15, 2008, 05:12:40 PM
I think this sounds like a good idea. So, its going to be a big printable pdf file? Any pseudocode or actual code examples in it?

I can write a preface for the book, and if I have time I'll maybe include a new algorithm I've invented (but haven't made public yet).

And just a reminder, any algorithm tutorials people write can also be entered into my bi-annual robot contest.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on August 15, 2008, 05:20:11 PM
It will at first be a pdf file and then we can publish it into a book ( work out the money issues later)

It will contain both pseudo code and working code in BASIC and C. Code will be written in a way that will work for most microcontrollers with little modification. Meaning it will not be microcontroller specific. So instead of the port name PortA.1 you use ServoPort1.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: Webbot on August 17, 2008, 04:11:51 PM
Ok so here are a few more thoughts:-

1. Sensors - great idea C/Basic. So if someone supplies a C tutorial for a given sensor then you will need someone to translate into Basic (and test it) and vice-versa.

2. Actuators. I think they will be harder then sensors. With a sensor the manufacturer dictates how they work. With a motor (non-servo) then you need some kind of controller and they all work differently. So: if you are avoiding the electronics side of things then do you plan to show algorithms for a finite number of different motor controllers? For example: Pololu has a DC motor controller driven purely via UART where as (most) other solutions are H-Bridge linked and have different numbers of wires and ways to control speed, braking, direction etc. Outputs are obviously important - as there is no point in monitoring sensors if there is no output !? Maybe that is why your overview doesn't mention them?

3. Print. Am not sure what experience you have with professional printing and the complications of say Pantone spot colours, cmyk vs rgb, image resolutions, bleed etc - let alone 'design'. Most people fail to realise that professional printing is a completely different world to, say, printing something at home/work or for the web and is much more complex. If you can satisfy the needs of a professional printing company then its normally easy to produce a web PDF but going the other way normally requires a vast amount of re-work (at least getting higher resolution image of every image!). If you supply a Word file to the printer then they will normally charge you to redo each page in a DTP system as desktop word processors just cannot do 'print'. I say this from a position of knowledge as that is what the commercial software I write for my own company actually does!! I suggest it may be worth you looking at something like Apache FOP (coz its free) - if you know Java. The basics are that the content text is stored in an XML format with mark up like 'Main Heading', 'Sub Heading', 'Bullet Point' etc etc. You then have an XSL template that decides what font, point size etc etc is used for each of these mark up styles. The template can feed into FOP and produce a PDF. So if you suddenly decide you want page numbers or make all the section headings slightly bigger, then just change the template, and create a new PDF. You can also create content/index sections with page number references.  But you also need to manage images - ie the image you put into a downloadable PDF may be 72dpi but, for a printer, you need to have a minimum of say 300dpi. So you need some imaging software to create the different resolutions for you. Our software would be an ideal solution as everyone could author stuff concurrently over the web and then we can produce web PDFs as well as print quality PDFs from the same data set - however I think it could require more time to set up and train than I can currently afford.

4. Either way you will need to enforce some rules re images. If you are only focusing on algorithms then (luckily) you wont have many photos - but you may have flow charts. So what format should these be in: ie rasterized rgb (jpg/png) or vector based formats like svg. Only suggesting this as you may otherwise end up with a whole bunch of image formats which someone then has to pull together and sort out.

5. If you really are contemplating having the book printed (and you aren't familiar with some of the points mentioned above) then I would strongly urge you to send something to your local friendly printing company quite early on to find out their view as to where they would need to spend any time with their own internal graphic designers so that you can see if you can fix this at source yourself, and not have to pay the printing company to: lay out the whole book again for you, redo all the images, etc at vast expense.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on August 17, 2008, 04:31:18 PM
Thanks Webbot for those thoughts - they really helped

I'm writing up an outline based on your ideas and mine.

Right now I am concerned with gathering all the material . You bring a great point about contacting the printing company. My plan is to just keep on gathering information and then after I have it all, I will arrange it on a page per request of the printing company.

I'll make a new post requesting articles ( which could be 1/2 page long even).

Thanks for the assistance Webbot .
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on August 17, 2008, 05:20:05 PM
http://www.societyofrobots.com/member_tutorials/node/115

I updated it

I really need some volunteers who can help write articles .
Even newer people to robotics can contribute. Simply scavenge the forum for information on how interface a part ( lets say a PING sensor ) and then write a short comprehensive tutorial that can show someone how to use that sensor. Please follow the guideline on the Book Project page. Authors names will be mentioned in the book next to their respective articles.

I'll update the Book Project page again later tonight. For the record I will be doing the CMUcam, bipedal robot,and whatever else is available.

If people can submit to me the articles they are working on that would be great  , so that way I won't end up writing a tutorial on something that someone is already doing.
If you are using some sensor anyway on your robot , can you please document it so that it can be included into this book?

Thanks,
Eric
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: rootoftwo on January 11, 2009, 05:09:56 PM
Hey, I'm new here. I'm not sure if this topic is still alive - but if it is, you should consider using http://www.lulu.com/ (http://www.lulu.com/) - a web-based print-on-demand service. There are a multitude of formats and templates with decent instructions on how to get what you want. There are even options for distribution through bookstores. I've used it for an exhibition catalog I edited and designed http://stores.lulu.com/rootoftwo (http://stores.lulu.com/rootoftwo) - I've made it available as a free download (80MB - its at print resolution) and have printed several hundred copies (at manufacturing cost - since I am the creator and publisher). For books sold through online bookstores Lulu take a 25% commission of the creator revenue (or 19ยข, whichever is greater) that you, the creator, set for the items you publish. For example, if set your creator revenue to $4.00 (on top of the cost of printing and binding the book) Lulu add a $1.00 commission. N.B. I got funding for this project through a grant and never needed it to be a commercial success. I have been able to give everyone involved in the project a stack of copies as well as getting it into school libraries ($99 for an ISBN number). This might be a low-risk strategy for what you are talking about here. I hope this is useful. (BTW I don't work for Lulu - also consider http://www.blurb.com/ (http://www.blurb.com/))

Cheers,
John.
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: airman00 on January 11, 2009, 05:11:37 PM
Sadly I think this project is dead ....  :(
Maybe we can revive the project in a while ....
Title: Re: a SoR project for all
Post by: frodo on February 08, 2009, 11:22:58 AM
oh, thats a pity :( i had some ideas. oh well.