Author Topic: Automobile control module  (Read 1328 times)

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Offline SickSpeedMonteTopic starter

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Automobile control module
« on: October 27, 2010, 09:11:21 AM »
I have an old car that I've been working on for years, and I always like to have a project going on with it.  I've learned alot by working on it, and now I want to use the project as a platform to get into programming and control systems.  I've been reading your forum here for a few days, and the tutorials, and while alot of it is foreign to me, I think that I could pick it up.  I have a BS in ME (so a few basic electronics courses under my belt) and I have programmed in C many years ago. 

Anyways, specifically what I want to do is to construct a dual zone climate control system.  There are also some other features that I would like to add to the car to give it modern conveniences, like the auto down/up power windows (the power window hardware is all there and functional) and a few other features. 

A few unique concerns that I see are that the controller is going to have to ultimately get power from the 12V battery, which goes up to ~14.5V when the alternator is running.  There would also be power interuptions, namely when the starter motor is engaged to fire the engine.  I'm not sure how the OEM's conventionally reduce the voltage into the 5V range for their ECM's and etc.  I'm also not sure if there should be a 12V bus for all of the servos.  The controller would also be subjected to heat, cold, and plenty of vibrations.  The windows would just be relay operated with a digital signal, so that shouldn't matter too much, but I guess the servos would run off of PWM?  Fan speed is controlled by a variable voltage in stock form, and should probably stay that way, however it is scaled to 12V, not 5.

There would need to be discrete positions that the servos hold to in order to blend A/C and/or heat in order to achieve a certain in-cabin temperature, as well as for vent/defrost/floor selections.  Would thermocouples be acceptable for reading the in-cabin temperature and providing feedback to the controller?

Any suggestions on where to go from here?  I would like to get my hands on some hardware/software and start playing with it to get a feel for it, but I'm a little afraid of burning up something by being such a newb.  Are there any hobby level controllers that will stand up to the environment this would be subjected to?

Thanks for reading!

Offline Soeren

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Re: Automobile control module
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2010, 10:40:34 AM »
Hi,

Anyways, specifically what I want to do is to construct a dual zone climate control system.
Wow, that must be a large car  ;)


A few unique concerns that I see are that the controller is going to have to ultimately get power from the 12V battery, which goes up to ~14.5V when the alternator is running.  There would also be power interuptions, namely when the starter motor is engaged to fire the engine.  I'm not sure how the OEM's conventionally reduce the voltage into the 5V range for their ECM's and etc.  I'm also not sure if there should be a 12V bus for all of the servos.  The controller would also be subjected to heat, cold, and plenty of vibrations.  The windows would just be relay operated with a digital signal, so that shouldn't matter too much, but I guess the servos would run off of PWM?  Fan speed is controlled by a variable voltage in stock form, and should probably stay that way, however it is scaled to 12V, not 5.
The automotive (electrical) environment is a huge challenge for electronics design. It's not the 14.4V to 14.8V charge, but transients of all kinds, of which the load dump is by far the most challenging (up to 60V..80V for quite a long time and packing a healthy punch), there are several other transient types to counter (shorter but much higher voltage - reaching perhaps 200V to 400V) and then there's the starter situation where you would normally calculate with down to ~4V or even lower.

But, you don't really need to adjust window height, temperatures and such while cranking and I don't think you have an immediate need to power anything in that situation, so the easy solution to that specific part of it would be to make a reset circuit firing when the power is back.

There are several methods to deal with cranck voltage though and a large capacitor will hold power for long enough to get the beast roaring.
A switch mode regulator is the best way to go down to 5V (or 3.3V or whatever you want for the controller).

The 12V motors in windows and fan don't need relays, transistors can handle that and then you can control the speed by PWM if you like - all controlled from the 5V or less controller.


There would need to be discrete positions that the servos hold to in order to blend A/C and/or heat in order to achieve a certain in-cabin temperature, as well as for vent/defrost/floor selections.  Would thermocouples be acceptable for reading the in-cabin temperature and providing feedback to the controller?
You shouldn't use (R/C) servos for that. They need to be energized at all times and was never intended to have such a long active life as you probably expect them to.
A worm gear on a DC motor is much better solution.

Thermocouples will just increase complexity and price for you (and your circuit). Better stick to NTC resistors, they'll be just fine.


Any suggestions on where to go from here?  I would like to get my hands on some hardware/software and start playing with it to get a feel for it, but I'm a little afraid of burning up something by being such a newb.  Are there any hobby level controllers that will stand up to the environment this would be subjected to?
If you want to go with a controller (it could be made analog as well), you need one with a suitable temperature range. No point in using a "hobby level controller" - better do it right from the start.

And lastly... Don't expect extreme temp. precision in a car, too many variable influences in that small volume of air, if you can hold the temp. within +/-2°C you should consider yourself lucky.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
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Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline SickSpeedMonteTopic starter

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Re: Automobile control module
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2010, 11:15:22 AM »
Thanks for the reply!

haha, yes it is a bit large I guess, by today's standards at least.  1985 Monte Carlo SS.

My much smaller C230 has dual zone too, and it's nice when the lady wants to be toasty and I would like a more human temperature range  ;D

The worm gear/DC motor sounds like a much better idea.  The servos having to stay energized had crossed my mind, but I am not familiar with most of this proposed hardware, so I wasn't sure if that was common practice. 

Ageed on the not needing any of this to work until after the car has fired.  Would the micro controller not reset automatically when it sees enough voltage?  What is a reset circuit?

And what is the load dump, causing 60-80+ volts??  Wow, I have never heard of that.  Very curious!

What kind of controller would you reccomend?

Offline Soeren

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Re: Automobile control module
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2010, 09:22:38 PM »
Hi,

haha, yes it is a bit large I guess, by today's standards at least.  1985 Monte Carlo SS.
Yeah, F. the environment lets burn some dead dinos ;D
(I really miss my old '72 Dodge/Holley/Edelbrock/Etc./Homebrew electronics constellation  :'()


My much smaller C230 has dual zone too, and it's nice when the lady wants to be toasty and I would like a more human temperature range  ;D
Sure, it must be hard to stay cool with a hot lady next to you  :P


The worm gear/DC motor sounds like a much better idea.  The servos having to stay energized had crossed my mind, but I am not familiar with most of this proposed hardware, so I wasn't sure if that was common practice. 
Nah, it's an R/C servo special, you might say. I wonder why nobody makes a worm drive R/C servo, as battery life/weight is a really big issue in eg. glide planes.

You might wanna hang on to the cables used with the manual regulation, or, if it's solid wire, replace them with Bowden cable, as you can then place the motors, side by side, in a convenient place. That will make it easier to mount them and to work with them.


Ageed on the not needing any of this to work until after the car has fired.  Would the micro controller not reset automatically when it sees enough voltage?  What is a reset circuit?
Sometimes it would reset - would you settle for sometimes?
A reset circuit can be very simple or more involved. It's purpose is to give a well defined reset pulse at a predetermined time or on this or that condition.
In your case, I'd make it reset when nominal voltage has been present for say 3..10s, or (if your SS has got an ECU) when the "motor running" signal from the ECU becomes active - the idiot lamp would be another useable indicator.


And what is the load dump, causing 60-80+ volts??  Wow, I have never heard of that.  Very curious!
Load Dump is THE beast, but there are other baddies that needs to be dealt with as well.
 Load Dump happens whenever you dump a load *doh* but comes in different flavors, the absolutely worst is when a more or less discharged battery gets disconnected while rev'ing the motor.
Your generator works hard to charge the battery, making lots of power and suddenly the load disappears - like if you have a kid hanging in your stretched arm and they let go, your arm goes up and so does the voltage, since the generator have a mass that cannot brake instantly, same as your arm.
According to SAE, a Load Dump can be up to 125V peak, but a more conservative number is 60..80V (it depends on generator speed, inertia and its inductance, the load change magnitude and how fast it happens) and the decay may take up to half a second.

Happened to me once, when a road service jump started my Dodge in a snow storm and took off before I disovered that they wiped out my entire charging system by removing the cables, as they opened one of my quick disconnect battery clamps in the process.
I started my trip home with dim lights and being extremely cold, I stopped thinking and turned on the heating fan, the battery gave up the ghost the very second (Luckily I had a thermo monkey-suit in the trunk, or I would have gotten really ill, as it was about 5 years before my first cell phone and I was miles from anywhere when it happened).  Yeah, Load Dump stinks   :-\

Minor examples of load dump can be measured each time you turn off a load, like your head lamps, your fan, stop running  power windows etc.
The exact opposite happens when you engage a load - The voltage dips some and then gets back up in a blink - if you're on a dark road, you should be able to see the effect of it, when you turn your fan, power antenna or similar on and off.

Then there's noise from the ignition, some of it through the supply (B+ line) and some by capacitive or inductive coupling into other leads. Relays turning on/off does their bit to amuse the environment and practically each change happening in a car will mean noise in the electrical system.
Newer cars will be better dampened due to the EMC directives, but you cannot make a car (electrical) noise free.


What kind of controller would you reccomend?
I use mostly PIC controllers myself, while most people here use AVR controllers.
Normally, I tell people to use whatever they're comfortable with, have tools for, understand etc. but since you haven't got any pref's (I assume) you could use whatever you like, as long as it have the specs needed.
When programming in C you'll notice little difference if any.

You should choose a controller with a temperature range of; automotive, industrial or extended of course and it should have enough A/D-converter inputs for your temp.gauges and enough digital I/O for whatever else you need. Hardware PWM is nice (not a deal breaker though).
Before I can be more specific or even give you type numbers, you need to specify exactly how many temp sensors you need, how many motors you need to control, whether they should be uni- or bidirectional, how you want it to control the windows (eg. button input) etc. all down to the least bit of what and what not.

So, sit yourself in a comfy chair, get the hot damsel to serve you a cold one and start doodling - when you're certain you have covered all eventualities, we can find a specific chip model.

More important than the exact flavor of chips, is the (protection of the) supply for it and driving the motors, so you need to find some numbers for them as well - voltage and max. current at the very least. this can be done at a later stage though, as this is for the "support circuitry" and not the controller itself.
Regards,
Søren

A rather fast and fairly heavy robot with quite large wheels needs what? A lot of power?
Please remember...
Engineering is based on numbers - not adjectives

Offline SickSpeedMonteTopic starter

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Re: Automobile control module
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2010, 02:08:53 PM »


Click to enlarge.

This is about what I have in mind for the climate control portion.  I don't know if I should have several seperate microcontrollers for each function that I want to implement, or try to make it all work on one.  

Looking at it now, that butterfly valve for the defrost needs to be another blend door like the rest, to prevent the floor/vents from getting air flow when you just want it going to the defrost vents.  The "8 Servos" should read 6.  That was there from a previous design.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 02:12:00 PM by SickSpeedMonte »